My overall takeaway from this interview was that these dudes are extremely grateful to still be doing this, and that they’ve still got a ton of crazy cool shit to put out there.

Songwriting was a primary subject of much of our conversation. Being that Nat and Rob are twins brings in an interesting dynamic that isn’t found much throughout music. Additionally, Sim’s songwriting path looks quite different, beginning only in 2015 with the composition of his solo acoustic material. We cover everything from influences to how songs begin. Although not much can be announced yet as far as specifics for new material, in Rob Rufus’s own words, “I think it’s some of the best shit I’ve ever written.“

Lots of new stuff is to come, but no details or set release date for any new music is public yet. Keep an eye out for any announcements from these dudes. In the meantime, check out some BLR favorites that I’ve attached below, along with the complete transcript of our chat. Cheers!

Dying Scene (Nathan Kernell NastyNate): I’ll try not to keep you guys here too long, I just – I appreciate you coming out and talking, dudes. So like, where did this tour kind of come from? Are you doing any new music or anything?

Rob Rufus (RR): Yeah, we’re recording right now, actually, a new release. So it all really – it was, like, reverse engineered kind of. You know, Blacklist was pretty much inactive, and then Nat and I were working on that band with [Fat] Mike. But Blacklist, we got asked to play the Punk in Drublic, and we were like, fuck, if we’re going to play that, we need to tour just to get our sea legs back.

That’s the Denver one, right? 

RR: Yeah, and so then we booked the tour ourselves because we just haven’t been doing shit and don’t really know anyone anymore. A label that can’t be named, they’re going to do a release for us. So we were like, well, fuck, we got to, like, write some fucking songs. We thought it would be done by now, but…

You’re doing that here in Nashville? 

Yeah, we did it at Matt Drastic’s place. 

Hell yeah dude, I actually booked my band with him in September. I love that dude, man, he’s such a nice guy. 

He’s the best, dude. And so we recorded there, and Sim’s recording in there. It’s good shit, like, it’s the best shit we’ve written in years, it’s more punk rock. You know, so, uh, it’s been – it’s been exciting to be there. It’s been fun to get back out there. 

Well, I’m stoked to see you guys start playing again. If I’m not mistaken, was Fest 19 the last time you guys played? 

Nat Rufus (NR): Yeah.

What was it before that? 

RR: Fest… something else *laughs*, like, a different Fest. Maybe, like, three or four years before that. 

So how did – how did you [Sim] kind of get involved with all this, because I’m familiar with your solo stuff. How did you kind of get mixed in? 

Sim Williams (SW): I met these guys in 2011, I was in a band called The Exposed. I was playing guitar. And we met these guys in 2011, we’ve just been friends since. I did that tour with Blacklist, that Guttermouth tour, I did merch so I’m kind of used to working with these guys. We’ve remained in contact pretty steadily over the years. So they asked me to join, and I just jumped at the chance, really.

RR: We’ve always wanted to work with you. 

Well it’s really cool getting to chat, I’ve loved your solo stuff for, I want to say, maybe the last three years.

NR: His last record’s the shit. 

So the Punk in Drublic thing, are there any bands on there you haven’t played with, that you’re, like, super stoked to play with or anybody you’re super pumped about? 

NR: The Bronx, for sure.

I love those dudes.  Have you played with, like, Suicidal?

RR: No, and that’s, like – we’re not playing the same day, but I’m very excited to see them. 

Yeah, I saw them, they were at Muddy Roots last year. Mike Muir, he’s aged a bit, but he hasn’t lost anything, he still has the energy. But then he’s brought in like, Ben Weinman on guitar, and Grayson Nekrutman, one of the top drummers under 25 in the world. And then Tye Trujillo, Robert’s son, on bass. He might be one of the most impressive musicians I’ve ever seen live, it was unbelievable.

NR: Yeah, I remember shaving my friend’s head at, like, 15 listening to Suicidal Tendencies, shaving it into a fucking mohawk listening to them. It’s going to be cool. I mean, the funny thing is when you’re young, you can’t think that you’re going to be playing with them one day. But now you grow up, you’re like, I can’t fucking believe it.

RR: Oh, and TSOL.

I’ve always known who they were, but I’ve kind of come around on them recently, started respecting the fuck out of those guys. 

NR: I was the same way with them, actually. I mean, I knew Code Blue, but then I kind of got into them later. We actually – the key player from TSOL (Greg Kuehn) has played on both our full-length records. And he played on our first self-released seven-inch too.

So are there any dates on this tour you guys are particularly excited about, like cities you haven’t hit or anything? 

RR: I’m excited to go back to Chicago for sure, Chicago’s going to be awesome. I’m excited to go to St. Louis because of the casinos. Last time we played there, we were robbed. 

My band actually didn’t get robbed there, we got robbed in Memphis our last time, and it was like the dude we were playing with. Are you playing any new cities for you Sim, coming out from the West Coast? 

SW: We’ve all done, like, walks all across a lot of these places. What’s the one we haven’t been to? There is one, Sioux City. Yeah, I don’t think I’ve ever been. 

NR: Kansas City, we haven’t been in a long time. Last time we were there, there was, like, a riot going on on the block of the club. 

Have you had good luck there? 

NR: Besides that? *laughs* Not really.

RR: I actually really like it. I will say, the first time we were ever there, the first time we did Warped Tour, and we drove up and we’re broke as fuck, we didn’t have money for a hotel. So we just parked in like, the luggage thing of a hotel, and we’ll just say we’re in a band, and maybe somebody will let us stay. And they did, we all got places to crash. People are cool, man, like, every once in a while… And Minneapolis, I’m excited to go there. 

NR: It’s kind of cool. Some of the places, you know, we haven’t been out in so long. We were trying to set up shows and some of the bands actually reached out as like fans of Blacklist Royals and stuff. So, it’s kind of exciting just to, you know, get to play with people that dig our band. You know, just a good reminder that, like, you know, people remember you. It’s cool, you know, just to get to support other bands, to get to put them on the show. 

So, I know, like, you guys have been fairly active recently with doing Bad Signs. Are you guys still doing that? 

RR: No, not really, sadly. You know, Bad Signs was such a great band, I’m pretty bummed that it’s not really a thing anymore. But probably the greatest thing that came from it is, like, pretty recently, actually during the writer’s strike in L.A. I was, like, out in L.A. and I was having dinner with my manager and we were talking about Die Young with Me. It had spit around a couple places to maybe do a movie and then I would write the script for it. And it had, like, been a finalist for this big thing and I’m, like, now it’s going to get big. Then the writer’s strike happened, and nobody’s allowed to even look at any script. But they were allowed to look at stage plays. And, like, somebody at the agency was, like, Die Young with Me would be a great musical. And I say yes to everything, so I was, like, “yeah, it would, let’s fucking do it.” So now it’s moving forward as an actual thing. And Bad Signs was such a theatrical thing, we demoed some songs for it and they fucking loved it, some big playwrights that are in the production of this thing. So yeah, Bad Signs isn’t really a thing, but maybe one day, who knows? 

So then, Sim, are you just hopping on for this tour, or is it a permanent thing?

SW: I’ll stick around as long as they’ll let me.

Well I guess a better question is, do you have guys have plans for after this tour and this Punk in Drublic thing? 

RR: So we’re putting a new release out. And upon that, then we plan to take another trip around the sun. It’ll be whatever the market dictates. Like, I mean, I know when the record comes out, we’ll probably get a chance to go back to Europe, which would be fucking amazing. I mean, that’s when you gotta just let Jesus take the wheel, so to speak *laughs*. 

NR: I’ll say it this way, we like to play, we want to play.

Well, do me a favor and play a Nashville show so I can see you guys.

NR: You know, we were going to play a Nashville show, but, like Rob said, we were flying by the seat of our pants and booking the shows ourselves. It just, we couldn’t get the day lined up. We were going to do a show in October, actually. 

Do you guys enjoy kind of doing it yourselves a little more, like, with booking shows? 

NR: Not at all *laughs*.

RR: No, fuck that shit. 

SW: I mean, it’s a little easier for me sometimes being a solo guy. See, sometimes it’s easier, but a lot of times it’s fucking harder just because you have to deal with everything yourself. I like when you, like, inquire about a good show, like a good opening slot, and you get it. That’s cool, there is that rush when you get it worked out. Or, like, when sometimes you book a show, and something happens, and it gets canceled, and you have to re-book somewhere, that can be stressful.

RR: Back in the day, we toured once a year, all over the country. So now we were, like, fuck, we’ve got to do some shows before we get up in front of all those fucking people, I was afraid that I didn’t know how to do it anymore, because I was fucking doing that shit on, like, MySpace and Facebook, book your own life. Now I’m, like, I don’t know how to even get in touch with fucking people, you know. But luckily we still maintained a lot of relationships with people, so I was happy that I could still do it.  

So the new Blacklist stuff, without going into a ton of detail, tell me a bit about that.

NR: I mean, the Blacklist Royal stuff is all original Blacklist Royals, like, nothing from any previous bands. The Blacklist thing’s about half done, we haven’t finished tracking quite yet. We’ve been trying to get it all wrapped up before this tour, that’s why nothing’s announced yet or anything. We’re gonna announce the label soon.

Are those songs that you guys have written recently, or have you got any older stuff on there? 

NR: Yeah, all these songs are new. Well, you know, it is actually funny, most of the songs are new. One of them, I probably wrote… man, I don’t even know, when we really quit doing stuff. 

RR: Yeah, we had a bunch of songs written, but shit kinda got fucked up, and we kinda, put it on pause. 

Sim, any plans coming up for the Exposed?

SW: We haven’t done anything since 2013, but we are talking. We’re doing something soon, probably even later this year or early next year. We’re writing; it’s tough because we’re all in different countries, but our drummer’s just moved back to Seattle. We’re all from the UK, but our singer lives in Australia, I live in California, our drummer moved back to the UK, but now he’s back in Seattle. We never fell out of contact or anything.

So, do you have anything planned solo coming up? 

SW: Yeah, I’ve just started recording a new EP, it’s gonna be a little bit more mellow, a little more just like acoustic-based which is something I’ve wanted to do for a long time. I got the first track of that back the other day, just like a rough mix, so hopefully by probably August, have something out, or like by September. I’ll probably just do some small West Coast shows too. 

RR: I do wanna say this, the cool thing about just the Blacklist thing and the Exposed, like I would call Blacklist our main band that we had, even when they kind of quit being active, we all stayed super active in music. Like still writing and playing and shit. So I feel like we’re all at the top of our game in that way. Now I think it’s some of the best shit I’ve ever written. 

So Rob, are you kind of the primary writer for Blacklist?

RR: Nah, nah. I write the singles *laughs*. 

NR: On the new stuff so far it’s been pretty 50-50. He did write the single on the new stuff.

RR: But me writing a single, my voice is fucked up, I can’t really sing, and I can’t really play guitar either. So it’s like Nat transposing with his twin thing my crazy fucking rough ideas, he somehow understands it. We’re really lucky.

I always like asking, what are some local bands you guys are into? And same for you, Sim, out in California. Are there any local bands that alot of guys may not know about? 

SW: There’s a few solo artists that I listen to.

I’ve gotten really into the Americana solo thing, like the punk guys doing the solo thing, whether it’s country or whatever. I don’t know if you know Northcote, I really love Matt’s stuff. 

RR: His record’s sitting on my player now, the one before Hope is Made of Steel.

Hope is Made of Steel is one of my favorite records of all time. 

SW: John Moreland, I listen to a lot of John. As far as solo artists go, I’ve played with some really, I mean I’ve played with Chuck Ragan, Austin Lucas, even Johnny Two Bags, guys like that. I’ve been lucky enough to play with those people, but in regards to unknown artists, actually my friend Michael Peters, one of the Bakersfield guys I recorded with, he’s releasing a record that I actually sung harmonies on a few of those songs. He’s got a song out now called Black Cloud and it’s Michael Peters and the Monsters, I’d recommend that if anyone likes that legit country. He’s got that legit Johnny Cash sound. 

RR: That band Black Venus, they’re fuckin’ badass. And Americana stuff like Emily Nenni and Teddy and the Rough Riders. But the best motherfucker, Jeff Sheppard. He’s legit punk as fuck, he’s just such a fuckin’ sick songwriter and performer. Once he breaks, he’s gonna pop off. If I go out to shit though, if I’ve taken an edible especially, I’ll find a new young artist. I’m grateful that I’m not like resentful of younger bands, like I would think I would be because I’m a resentful fuck *laughs*. 

It’s interesting, the few shows I’ve seen you guys at, it seems like some of your influences are less like “punk” guys, it seems like it’s a lot of genres outside of punk.

RR: Yeah, for sure. I mean I love all kinds. Like I know everybody will say that, but I have like best fuckin’ record collection. I feel like everybody our age that was into our genre of punk that’s a musician, especially a songwriter, they get into their late 20’s or mid 20’s and discover Bruce Springsteen and Steve Earle. Like I was always, I’ve been a huge fan of Springsteen since high school, but it was really when we moved here and we saw Steve Earle play some protest that we were opened up to all these other great bands. I started appreciating the song for the songwriting more than just the direction.

That’s something I’ve struggled with and I’m starting to come around on. I’ve always been all punk, but now I’m starting to finally appreciate good songwriting. Like, I don’t care about the genre, it’s the songwriting. Are you guys kind of the same way?

SW: I didn’t grow up necessarily as a songwriter, I grew up more as a guitar player, so I only really started writing songs when I started doing the solo thing in like 2015. With writing, I think when you hear things, it’s kind of like seeing things through a different lens.

That’s super interesting that your music career was that far along before you started writing. How difficult was it for you, when you started writing? Did it come pretty easily being around it that long?

SW: I’m surprised actually, I wrote the first EP pretty fucking quick and it’s not terrible, I was surprised really. And also I think I’ve been around it enough, Tony, the singer of our old band and songwriter, was a very good writer, a really really good songwriter. I think I learned a lot from him, what not to do. So in regards to genre, it’s more about the song and just how well it comes across, it can be a big, theatrical stage song or it can be just one guy with an acoustic guitar, like John Moreland. He’s my favorite songwriter and singer and it’s just him with an acoustic guitar.

RR: That’s actually an addendum to what I said earlier, I don’t give a shit about the genre, but if it’s boring, if it’s pop, get the fuck out.  

SW: There still has to be a hook. There are some really good writers out there, some people that write really in depth songs that you can tell they put a lot of thought into it, but you still need to have the hook, you still need to have the melody.

NR: It’s so crazy, I just thought that seemed insane, but it’s almost like an author. You don’t think it’s crazy when somebody’s 40 and they go and write a novel and then they’re the shit. I just assume you’ve been like me and writing shitty songs since you were 15. But it does make sense, you start off good, you’ve got that passion.

So one of my go-to questions I always like asking too is like, what do you guys start with? Do you start with lyrical melodies or start with music?

RR: For me, I usually start with, not always a chorus, but like for instance, I like to go to bookstores, especially back in the day. And just look at the books, look at the book titles, maybe flip through and read the back of them, I’ll get stuck on like a turn of phrase. I had one of these songs written for the musical, and maybe 10 years ago I was reading like a Time Magazine or something like they fucked up and were sending me. There was this story about some shit going on in Africa and this general writer was quoted on the bottom of the thing and said “the heart is a drum that beats louder than death”. I was god damn, it’s fucking poetry, especially in the context of this terrible shit that was going on. And then like 10 years later we started working on songs for the musical and I was like that’s the song. And sometimes I’ll talk out a funny take on an idea. Like I wanted to write a song about ableism and I’d love to do it like the “KKK Took my Baby Away.“

NR: I like to start with titles these days. That was interesting because in Bad Signs, the nature of it was more kind of theatrical so I would start with titles and like themes.

So the fuckin’ tour. How pumped are you guys?

NR: When we got on the Punk in Drublic show, I was like, I want to do two fucking weeks. But then it was so soon, like, oh, we’re gonna get, like, five shows. I mean, honestly, it’s fine. But honestly, it’s gonna be a fucking blast. Five shows is more than enough. 

Are you playing with any bands you’ve played with before, not on Punk in Drublic? 

NR: One of the bands, Bruiser Queen, from St. Louis, is playing two of the shows. They’re great, they’re a two-piece. And Nato Coles is playing the Minneapolis show, he was in a band called The Used Kids back in the day. He’s been in a bunch of, like, fest bands. But he’s a fucking killer. 

Sweet! Well I wish you dudes the best of luck, I just really appreciate you guys sitting down with me. It’s cool getting to meet all you guys.

NR: We appreciate you dude. Honestly, even getting the opportunity to play as Blacklist and make music again, kind of getting to even reform the band with like, the dream team is so awesome. 

So Blacklist is back?!

NR: Blacklist is back, baby!