The last time we caught up with Sammy Kay – like for real caught up, interview style, for the website – was a couple of years back. It was about his then-upcoming EP, Inanna. It was a half-dozen folk-inspired mostly acoustic tracks that grew out of a project to write sonnets. Twelve-to-sixteen lines, no repeating choruses, character-driven thought experiments. Backed by the likes of John Calvin Abney and Corey Tramontelli and produced by frequent collaborator J Duckworth, it was another journey down a road he’d been traveling for some time. “In my head, the last couple of years, I’ve been trying to chase fucking Woody Guthrie or Bob Dylan,” explained Kay when we caught up again last week about his latest project’s newest release. The running joke for a while was that Kay, who grew up in punk rock and ska-inspired bands primarily in the NY/NJ area before trading in his Tele for a Harmony Buck Owens acoustic, would only pick up an electric again as a mid-life crisis. But Kay is now 35 years old and, as he put it in a manner that is so quintessentially Kay, “the world doesn’t need another fucking Woody Guthrie or Bob Dylan.” Instead, Kay would come to realize; quickly – organically – magically; is that the world does need, a new project. A supergroup in the realest sense of the word. A band that will take queues from The Clash – both sonically and realistically. A band called The Kilograms.

Featuring Kay and punk rock legend Joe Gittleman (co-founder of Avoid One Thing and, you know, The Mighty Mighty Bosstones), the project initially started a little over a year ago as a one-off collaboration for the Black Sand Relief compilation to benefit a mutual friend, Michelle Ska, who lost everything in the Maui fires. “We got pulled into helping some friends do this comp just as like…I’m going to sound like a businessman…’consultants’,” explains Kay. “We were consulting with some buds on how to wrangle some bands for this thing for Michelle and we both were supposed to do some good.“

In addition to their consulting roles for the compilation (which includes tracks from Catbite and Westbound Train and Spring Heeled Jack and The Pilfers and The Slackers and a bunch more second- and third-wave faves), the duo teamed up for the track “Who Am I.” As mentioned above, they of course named their collaboration The Kilograms (Get it? Kay and Gittleman? Kg? Kilogram? Get it?). And what started as a one-time thing very quickly sparked in both a newer and deeper creative streak in the two longtime songwriters. Kay – originally an East Coaster who, after a few stints in California, has called the greater Cincinnati area home for the last handful of years – looped frequent collaborator and Cincy native J Duckworth (Newport Secret Six) into the fold and the two began woodshedding ideas, trading them back and forth with Gittleman, who was back home in the northeast. “I don’t know if it was the sabbatical or free time or whatever, but Joe just was ripping all summer,” Kay laughs. “There was a point where I told Joe to stop sending me songs because we were both so excited and I couldn’t keep up with his output!“

The creative output alone meant that the project was destined to graduate from a writing exercise to a live performing one. Craig Gorsline, an old-time collaborator of Kay’s from the Sammy Kay and the Fast Four days, hopped in the proverbial van on keys. For the first handful of dates, Dan Alfonsi from Flatfoot 56 manned the drumkit, keeping the seat warm for the veteran Michael McDermott (ex-Bouncing Souls) to finish a summer run providing the backbeat in the legendary Joan Jett and the Blackhearts. Together, the band ripped through close to two dozen shows in the back half of the year, including a prime spot alongside Big D & The Kids Table at the latter’s annual Halloween show in their hometown of Boston.

In between shows, the band continued to write and record. The initial EP in February 2024 was followed by another EP in September. There was also plenty of work for their own outside projects in the queue. “The core of the Kilograms, right? All the members, we put out three fucking full lengths” last summer, explains Kay excitedly. “June, July, August – Newport Secret Six record (Rising Tide), my record (July 1960) and Joe’s record (Hold Up) this summer. On top of a 12-inch, on top of a 7-inch, on top of a comp, on top of a couple of digital singles that I did while working on a full length.”

Oh, about that full-length. The band continued to write and record ideas in their respective areas, trading tracks back and forth until they had enough for a legitimate full-length record. But it wasn’t quite right, yet. “We made the whole record remotely and it was OK. It was just fine,” explains Kay. “And then we had a couple of days off between some shows and it was like, well, let’s go to Pete’s. Let’s spend three days and set up a drum kit and a guitar and a bass amp. And me, Joe and McDermott ripped, I think we did 14 songs…” As is probably obvious, the “Pete” in question is the one-and-only Pete Steinkopf, who in addition to playing guitar for the iconic Bouncing Souls for thirty-five years, has been producing records at Little Eden Studio in Asbury Park for close to two decades. Wonderful records by the likes of The Loved Ones and Dave Hause and obviously the Souls and Space Cadet and, of course, Sammy Kay. “Me and Pete have been going for like twelve years now? This will be the fifth full-length record I’ve done with Pete, plus a bunch of other stuff and demos and a few splits that never came out.“

While Kay is certainly no stranger to the unique setting that is Little Eden – still owned by longtime Souls manager Kate Hiltz – it’s the first time he’s recorded there without being a local. “I’ve always made a record in my hometown or in my region,” Kay states. “(This time), we stayed at Kate’s upstairs, in the bunkhouse and it was just real nice to be able to like wake up, walk to Frank’s, walk to (Cafe) Volan, have a couple of smokes on the beach, walk back to Little Eden and just plug in the guitars, you know?”

The result of those sessions is Beliefs And Thieves, the band’s upcoming full-length debut. Due out in April on Rad Girlfriend Records and the band’s own Weights And Measures imprint, the album is ten tracks that run the full gamut of sounds that you might expect from a band that includes a Mighty Mighty Bosstone and a Bouncing Soul and, well, and Sammy and J and Craig. “I’m always leaning towards The Clash,” says Kay. “I think that if it was just a ska band, I would have been gone already. Like I would have done a 7-inch and the EP and said “okay, that was fun. We don’t need to do this.” Indeed, there are full Clash catalog references aplenty on Beliefs And Thieves. Case in point, on the song “Hard Lines.” “Hard Lines” was a completely different song that I ended up rewriting and we rearranged it in the studio. I got to say “trust me.” Sometimes when you say “trust me,” it works,” he declares rather emphatically. “Joe had a groove and it was OK, and I was like, “let’s lean Sandinista Clash, like “Junco Partner.” Just trust me.” And we did. And it’s really fucking cool. It’s really groovy.”

That trust is at the core of the relationship between the band’s core members (seven if you count Pete and Paul Kolderie, who mixed the record as he has with countless other brilliant releases and dozens if you count the band’s extended families, who’ve also become close in the year-or-so that the band has existed). “We’re all aligned in the sense of doing whatever we need to do as long as we leave the light on; as long as we leave the room a little brighter than we found it,” says Kay. “For the five of us to cannonball and just try and start a new project, and just be able to put out a seven-inch, let alone a seven-inch AND a fucking 12-inch EP AND a full length in a calendar year, and play twenty shows, that’s a fucking win.“

Check out the lead single, “Beliefs And Thieves,” and all of the available pre-order options, and keep on scrolling to check out our extensive Q&A with Kay, which goes in to great detail on the band’s process. There’s a lot about the growing Kilograms family (go ahead and maybe throw a few dollars in the pot and help Sammy’s partner Liz in her grueling battle with uterine cancer, yeah?) and an awful lot about what it’s like to be in a room writing music with not one but two punk rock legends. Here’s a hint from Kay himself: “There’s Gittleman and McDermott. Like, that shit’s a masterclass.“

(*Editor’s note: The conversation below has been edited and condensed for content and clarity. Yes, really.)

Dying Scene (Jay Stone): You’ve been releasing records for a long time now on your own. Does it feel different being a Kilograms full length?

Sammy Kay: Um, no. I just had someone ask me how the record was coming. I just got the master in, and they were like “are you stoked?” I’m like, “yeah, I’ll listen to it once.” And then I’ll make sure it’s good. I listen to it in the headphones, I’ll listen to it on the stereo in the house. I’ll listen to it in the car. And then when the test presses come, I’ll listen to it on like the junk record player, my record player. and then I’ll go to Jay’s. Jay (Duckworth, producer and fellow Kilogram) has like a nice system, you know? And if the test sounds good on all three, then we’re good. And then I don’t. I’ll listen to whatever song we never learn when it’s time to play a show.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I know already off the bat, like one song will never get played live. Or probably two. Like we’ll learn them, but they’ll never rotate in. There’s a little too much going on for that arrangement you know? But I’m also not mad about that either.

Are you at the point now where you’ll vary songs based on what the crowd is or what kind of lineup you’re on? Like if you’re on a ska show vs. a Dropkick show?

Yeah, absolutely. It seems like we’re about 20 shows deep now. We’re starting to figure out the right blocks, and we figured out the right blocks pretty quick. Figuring out where (the songs) live, you know? Like we just flipped a song that has been song five in the set to now be the second-to-last song. And it’s like, “oh yeah, that sits real good there and sets up the last song or the last two songs real well.” I’m just excited for us to learn all of them proper and start being one of those bands…None of us want to play the same set every day.

Yeah, right. 

Your first block and your last block is usually always the same, but to be able to just totally flip-flop the middle is what I’m eager for, you know?

Totally. You recorded this with Pete, yeah? 

We recorded this with Pete Steinkopf. The legend.

All together in the same room. Obviously we’ve talked quite a bit or texted quite a bit, so I sort of forget what you’ve talked about in interviews and what I just know, so some of this might be redundant to shit you’ve talked about. But was that really sort of around the first time that you all were all together? 

In a studio, yeah. It was the first run of shows that McDermott was around for. We did this run last May, and then McDermott was out with Joan Jett all summer and he flew in and we started doing some shows. And we essentially made the record…this is technically the third time I’ve made this record. 

I will say some of these songs sound like, wait, I’ve heard these, right?Wait, I don’t remember if I’ve heard this.

So we made the whole record remotely, and it was OK. It was just fine.So here’s how the Kilograms work. When we started, we did “Who Am I?” and then all of a sudden, me and Joe had nine songs right away. And then Jay threw a couple in the hat. I threw a bunch in the hat. Some things got removed. Joe was throwing a song in the hat every week that was done. And we were recording and then we kind of found ourselves with a record that was just OK. And no slight to us, it just needed to get done again. We started playing the songs. We found different little drum nuances or pattern changes or tempo changes. And it was like, “let’s do this right.” We had a couple of days off between some shows and it was like, “well, let’s go to Pete’s. Let’s spend three days and set up a drum kit and a guitar and a bass amp.” And me, Joe and McDermott ripped, I think we did 14 songs…We just hunkered down for three days, did drums, bass, guitar. We threw out all the guitar. It was just scratch just to get the bass locked in with Pete’s beautiful preamps. And then we went home and then me and Jay and Craig hunkered down for about a month, working three days a week and just built the songs. 

So that wasn’t necessarily writing new material at that point. That was like rounding out the sound of the songs that existed or writing new?

We were still writing. There are like two songs we wrote in the studio because We hashed out in the room, “Beliefs and Thieves,” “Saddest Songs.” “Fireworks” was written pretty much on the fly. I had it in my notebook, but there wasn’t a demo besides just me yelling at my phone. “Lorelei,” and “Ya Ya,” we had demos done for, like ready mix things. “Lie To Me,” there was a working demo that was almost there that we hashed out. “Hard Lines” was a completely different song that I ended up rewriting and we rearranged it in the studio. I got to say “trust me.” Sometimes when you say “trust me,” it works. And Joe had a groove and it was OK, and I was like, “let’s lean Sandinista Clash, like “Junco Partner.” Just trust me.” And we did. And it’s really fucking cool. It’s really groovy. And then I ended up rewriting the lyrics post-leaving because the words just weren’t lining up with the new groove. So that wasn’t on the first round. “Hoodie Song” has been floating since like day two, since Jay really showed up and became a Kilogram. But like probably seven of the 11 songs are pretty new. We had already kind of cherry-picked the bangers. “America In Black and White” was written the same time. Those were all that initial batch. Like everything that’s out now, plus like “Lorelei.” So when we recorded, we knew we could get five songs done in an afternoon because we’ve been playing, and then we had two days to get weird. “Battles” was a song that’s been around for a while, but we’ve done I’ve three or four different variations of “Battles” since it showed up. Like, different drums. We tried a couple different ways. But having Pete being able to do that with…for me to be able to go back and work with Pete after five years…

Yeah, when was the last time previously? Did he do Civil/War? 

Yes, he did Civil/War. Civil/War would be the last time I saw Pete in a room. And (this time) having Joe there with Pete and their long, long friendship and McDermott back in Little Eden where he would hide out (back in the day) I guess…it was just magic. Like, Little Eden is always magical, but it was just fucking magical. 

I was going to say; all of you have been around for a long time, but that sort of amalgamation of all of you together and that location and Pete and like that seems like it must have felt special. I mean, it felt special to me and I’m like three levels removed from that. 

And the coolest part was I’ve never like flown somewhere (to make a record).  I’ve always made a record in my hometown or in my region. We stayed at the studio. We stayed at Kate’s like upstairs and in the bunkhouse and it was just real nice to be able to like wake up, walk to Frank’s, walk to (Cafe) Volan, have a couple of smokes on the beach, walk back to Little Eden and just plug in the guitars, you know? Like, “all right, cool, you guys are going to get lunch, I’m going to take a shower, then we’ll get back at it.” But also be away from life and home and kind of the like, “well, shit, like, all right, guys, I’m going to bail out for half a decade (*both laugh*) or I got to walk the dog, or I have to go to work, you know what I mean?  It was real, real nice just to lock in and be there.  

And I mean, aside from Pete’s, but that’s nobody’s home turf. So you’re all able to just kind of shut everything else off and work on this.

Yeah. And I think that was the magic of like being able to cut whatever, 13, 14 songs in three days and like writing and learning things on the fly. 

It seems like this came together really quick. The whole band, I was trying to think back about, like, when you sort of told me that it might become a thing because it was sort of the joke, whether online or through text or whatever, that like that that mid-30s ska band thing, like, it’s like…

Like, it’s my midlife crisis. 

Yeah, right. And that was sort of the joke, like, oh, I’m never going to play an electric guitar again or whatever. And then this kind of happened. 

I have a midlife crisis tour van! I own a fucking piece of shit, 20-year-old fucking van with a tow hitch and a fucking broken TV in it. You know…Joe called me two Thanksgivings ago…so like 14 months ago. 

So I was trying to think about this timeline, that show you played in Malden with Amy Griffin and whoever else. But Joe was there. 

That was like the first time Joe came and hung out with me.

I remember talking to my brother after that once this band actually started, I was like, “I have to check with Sammy but I feel like I feel like we were there when this thing like happened. Like, I feel like we were sort of tangentially in the room.“

I’ve known Joe for a while in passing, and I’d always ping him and be like, “hey, man, like, let’s think about this.” It was always like an industry favor, like, “hey, man, like any chance you could link me with somebody at Side One Dummy?” Like, “I have this record. Do you have a label that you think might be into it? Or do you have a good publicist?” And then while we were doing July 1960, I was like, “what do you think of these songs? They’re like sonnets? I know you’re a songs guy.” And we started really rapping. And he was like, at one point, I wanted him to produce that record because he produced the first Chuck record. Los Feliz is a Gittleman production. And he had a big part in the next record, too. And those records… I mean “The Boat” is “THE BOAT”… the boat is the boat. I feel like every interview, it all goes to Chuck Ragan. (*both laugh*) But I wrote him about like coming to Boston and wanting to go to Wooly Mammoth Studios, which is like, we’re the dude that engineered the Replacements records. I was like “let’s go hang out and make a Replacements record. And he was like, “no.” He was like, “I would love to. I’ve been making my wife Angie live on my schedule for like 30 years now or 40 years. Like, if you book the time and I happen to be there…but I can’t promise it.” But then we played that show in Malden. He came down for the weekend and he went to see Amy and went to see me. And we hung out and bullshitted. And he had some really, really sweet, nice things to say. It was big hugs and it was it was fucking cool. And then we got roped into helping some friends do this comp just as like…I’m going to sound like a businessman…”consultants.” (*both laugh*) We were consulting with some buds on how to wrangle some bands for this thing for Michelle and we both were supposed to do some good. So he wrote me, he just posted on Instagram like a screen grab, like, “hey, can you help me finish this demo? And we’ll just be like Sammy and Joe” and “I was like, yeah, sure!” And I called Jay (Duckworth). “Jay, Gittleman from the Bosstones wants to do this thing. What are you doing tomorrow?” He’s like nothing! Let’s buy smokes and tacos…

Yeah, right. 

You know, and then it just kind of spiraled out. 

So when did you feel like this isn’t just like a fun little project, and this is a real band now. Is that when Jay or McDermott get involved or…?

Detroit. We played Detroit. We played Cincinnati and it was the first show. I was like, “oh, shit…ee just played 40 minutes with the music and we said, ‘Hi, ‘we’re the Kilograms!” And that was great. And then we played Detroit the next night and it was off the fucking chain. And it was like, “oh, yeah, this is the thing.” We did those shows just to see if we could do it if we wanted to do it. We had Supernova booked. And then McDermott was out with Joan Jett, so Danny from Flatfoot filled in on drums. That’s when Craig came into it. We did those shows and me and Joe felt something magical, something fierce. And then it was like, “let’s do this.” We knew there was like…magic. Like, when you announce a record and it sells out eight hours later, and (people) have never heard more than one song, there’s some kind of excitement or magic, at least for us. Like this is some cathartic shit. This is a means to create with folks that like I’m grateful for. I mean, I’m grateful for everybody I get to create with. Like I love Corey. I love Todd. I love John Calvin. Right? Mitch and Will, all the dudes, whether it’s like the Sammy punk rock band or the (Seasonal) Depression, like the folk thing. But to be able to like…dude, there was a point where I told Joe to stop sending me songs (*both laugh*) because we were both so excited and I couldn’t keep up with his output. He’s been on sabbatical. He just went back to school to teach again, so he had just been like sitting in the woods writing songs. And it’s been…like we could go and make – on paper – another full length tomorrow. There are enough demos for a second record. You give us two weeks, we can knock it out. It’s really beautiful and cathartic. And Liz came with me on the last run of shows and so did Joe’s wife and the two of them were real cute because we never met Joe’s wife until the other day. And the two of them were like…you know, Liz has gone to see us two or three times, and Joe’s wife hadn’t seen it. And they were in the room together laughing like “we can’t really be mad at these guys for like the amount of time they put in.” 

Yeah, right.

It feels there’s something special here, at least for me and Joe and McDermott. McDermott is like…I’ll be like calling and bothering him about something like and he’s like “you know, I’m in this band, it’s really good. I have to practice the drums. Get off the fucking phone!” (*both laugh*). Even Jay is like one of my best friends. But even Jay gets like I’ve never seen Jay. I don’t think I’ve ever smiled this much playing music like on stage. I’m a stern motherfucker. I am like hating being on tour, always. Playing shows is my least favorite thing about the industry. I’m sorry, the 40 minutes I’m on stage telling stories and doing things (is the best). But everything that leads up to it.

The other 23 hours and 20 minutes. 

Yeah. I’m 35. I should be out of this game. I should have been out of this game. Like buying a van and getting in the van is a young man’s sport. And my sport these days is framing fucking bathrooms, man, like…

It’s tangible, though. Like prior to that show with Big D here, I don’t think I had talked to McDermott or Joe two decades anyway, maybe longer. And it’s tangible, the sort of joy that they have in this band, too. And even Joe said that directly. I don’t think it’s telling stories out of school, but because obviously he put out his record last year and it’s great and it’s a Joe Gittleman record. But we sort of talked about it a little bit just that night. And he was like, “I don’t really want to do an awful lot else with it for now because I really like this band! Like I’m having too much fun doing this.“

Yeah, we legitimately opted to do a co-release on the record with Josh and Rad Girlfriend with the agreement that we are going to have our little label. We called it Weights and Measures. Myself, Joe, Jay, Craig, Dermo, whatever we want to do, we have the means to release. And have a conjoined mailing list and just have a little imprint that we can do whatever the fuck we want. Because at the end of the day, we’re just making music. And even if you look at the Gittleman record like this, I’m on a couple of songs, McDermott’s on a couple of songs. Jay engineered some stuff for some of it. Like we’re there, you know? You know, I engineered… engineer is a loose term, I hit record on a tape machine and line up a tape machine on Jay’s record. Me and Jay have collectively have released – between the Newport Secret Six and the Sammy whatever, 40 songs since I moved to Cincinnati. 

That’s wild.

Like the core of the Kilograms, right? All the members, we put out three fucking full-lengths this summer. June, July, August. Newport Secret Six, my record, and Joe’s record. On top of a 12-inch, on top of a 7-inch, on top of a comp, on top of a couple of digital singles that I did while working on a full length. And there’s more done that didn’t make the record or that needs to get mixed. The output is the magical part of this band.

Did you ever have a conversation about what the band was going to sound like stylistically or what you were going to write about lyrically? I don’t know if you guys necessarily sing the songs that you write lyrically, but some of this sounds a little more like you said, sort of Clash-like, outward-facing, like social commentary versus the solo stuff. Did you ever actually have a conversation about what it’s going to be like, “what are we going to sound like?”

The only conversation we really had was that we wanted to have fun. In my head, the last couple of years, I’ve been trying to chase fucking Woody Guthrie or Bob Dylan and the world doesn’t need another fucking Woody Guthrie or Bob Dylan. They’re a dime a dozen. And I personally feel like my one thing was just, I want to take notes from The Clash and ultimately their full discography, all band members, all bands, right? I want to take from Big Audio Dynamite, Latino Rockabilly War, The Mescaleros. And like my two cuts on the record, all of the shit that I got to do on the record, all I really wanted to do was have Craig playing organ and me laying on a floor spinning delay pedals and reverbs and Mellotrons reverse delayed with like the weird shit. Like, I want to go and be like sneaking Cumbia into punky reggae. I talked to McDermott the other day, we both really love this band Soft Kill. I stumbled on them about the time McDermott got off the road with Joan Jett at the end of the summer and jumped in the band. And I listened to it a lot. We’ve been having discussions about how we can sneak 808s and fucking drum machines under his shit now. That’s the next move. Like, “how do we get a sample? Do you have a sample pad? Can we start doing 808 shit?” The only agreement we really had was that we were smiling and having fun, and if we weren’t smiling and having fun, we were going to change that really quick. I’m always leaning towards The Clash. I think that if it was just a ska band, I would have been gone already. Like I would have done a 7-inch and the EP and said “okay, that was fun. We don’t need to do this.” But the fact they support me opening my mouth every night and shouting about things that are important in my life. I have zero censorship. We censored one line in “America In Black And White.” Joe said “you should have it be this,” and we changed it and we finished it and we immediately regretted the censor. It was “do we say ‘from Palestine to Mexico’ or do we say ‘from East Berlin’?” in regards to building walls? In regards to genocide? That’s the only time that any of us have said “well, do you really want to say that?” After we heard the master, we said “yeah, we should have said Palestine.” They let me shout about trans youth and about affordable healthcare and about how Luigi is not a fucking terrorist and the hills that I want to die on with equal thoughts and equal sentiments. We’re all aligned in the sense of doing whatever we need to do as long as we leave the light on. As long as we leave the room a little brighter than we found it. As long as we are trying to help build an inclusive community for all. That’s what human nature should be, right? 

That really gets to the core of what this scene has been about and should be about. Whether you look at The Clash or you look at Joe’s old band. Obviously I’m in my mid-40s and I’m from the Boston area, and as someone who grew up wanting to be a bass player, Joe Gittleman was THE GUY. And the Anti Racist Action stuff and the Food Not Bombs stuff that used to be so present at those shows…that was the thing. When they talk about “what radicalized you…”

Dude, Let’s Face It was my political awakening within records.

Question The Answers for me, but yeah.

As I got older I realized a lot of those songs were about addiction and recovery.

The scene got weird for a while and there’s been some negative element in and out, but I think it’s important to replant that flag every once in a while about this is why you’re here. This is why we’re here. This is why any of this shit matters. 

Exactly. At the end of the day…at our shows, I’ve got a microphone. And I’ve got 45 fucking minutes. And we’re going to be reminding you that this is a community. And that community is important. And whatever my rants and rambles might be that day, every show we’ve played, a couple people come up to me and say “thanks for saying those things.” I got a text right before we started from the kid’s old fifth-grade teacher. They and their family came to see us at 9:30 two weeks ago, and was like “hey, what you said on stage really affected my nephew in a good way, and they’re thinking about things a little differently now. 

So I’ve been told to ask about the song “Lorelei” because I live in a house of Gilmore Girls fans, and so I jokingly have to ask, is that written by like Christopher’s perspective or Luke’s perspective? 

(*both laugh*) Um, my favorite thing about Joe Gittelman and Joe Gittelman’s writing is that these people exist. I haven’t met Lorelei, but I met Lorelei’s dad, who’s an old-school Bosstones guy. And in recent show folklore, I got to meet Josie Bee, who is the namesake in “Glimmer” on Joe’s record. Chad Price is that way too. They don’t change names if they’re writing about somebody. I think in Lorelei’s case – and apologies if I’m speaking outta hand – but he just loved the name and wrote it down. I’ve talked to both (Joe and Chad) about it and I started doing the same thing. Like if I, if there’s a name – like Jim on 1960 is a friend of mine. I started doing the same thing. If I’m going to write about a story or that involves you, I’m going to reference you so you know I appreciate you

I’m not just going to call you Mary, like a guy from Jersey.

And I did that for fucking a decade, right? And now, it’s all like, if you were important to me that I want to tell a story or our story, I’m going to use it, you know? I think that’s honest and it’s fucking cool. Like, I mean I was stoked to meet Josie Bee. Like I was stoked to meet Lorelei’s dad, you know? So the Lorelei story, and this might not be a hundred percent true, the show I played in Malden, two days later was the Bad Time tour and Lorelei loves Catbite and somehow Lorelei jumped up and sang with Catbite. Joe was there, and Joe saw his old friend, and the friend was like “Oh, that’s my kid!” Lorelei, I guess, is in a band and I’m assuming they’re, you know, 16, 17, but, uh, Lorelei has a version of “Lorelei” too. I haven’t heard it yet, but it’s done, and I guess Joe was like, “let’s put out ours and then you can put out yours.” 

It is a good name. I mean, even for like songwriting, and especially for a bright sort of upbeat song like that. 

Yeah. Banger. Super fun to play. Love that song.  It’s later on the record, track eight maybe? 

It’s nine in the list that I have. 

Yeah, that, “Hoodie” and “Old Dog” at the end. 

What’s the actual release timeline? 

April 4th.

Quick turnaround for vinyl nowadays? Have things gotten back to normal? 

Things are back to normal. Cutting takes about four weeks. Then it takes like two weeks to get test presses. And then it’s once the test presses go and you’re clear, it’s pretty quick. Most places are like about 10 weeks if you’re doing it in the States. There’s a little press in Northern Kentucky, right outside of Louisville that Josh likes that I’ve been using. He did the seven-inch. They’re doing the full length and they have a pretty quick turnaround. The cutting is the hardest part from what I understand. Once you start, once you get your plates made, you can knock out a thousand records in a day. It’s just getting the plates made, you know? Because there’s only so many guys that are cutting. There’s so many wonderful, like three or four men, small businesses, putting records down in the States that even with merch, I’m trying real hard to keep everything like… I don’t want to do die-cut pins because they’re all getting outsourced. It’s all brokers. And the only guys that were doing it, I won’t use because they did some fucked up shit with the union and like, once their crews unionized, they fired them all. So like, that’s why I don’t have die-cut pins. I haven’t found a guy that’s doing them in the States that’s solid. Our merch is, is all, you know… the cotton might be made outside of the States, but we’re using sweatshop-free certified companies. We’re getting some bandanas made, like I found a guy that’s doing them in New Jersey and not in wherever, you know? There’s power in the union. There’s power in the fucking workforce, you know? That’s important. These guys trying to do these little presses and put records out, good for them, you know? I will support you as much as I can. 

Artwork is already done? Joe Maiocco I’m assuming?

Oh yeah. Joe Maiocco all day. He was the secret fifth Beatle of so many bands. James Walker did some stuff too. I love James Walker. But Joe did the full layout, inserts, whole nine. All the merch. Our buddy Josh (Jurk), who sings in School Drugs, did a shirt designed for Rad Girlfriend for us. 

That’s a rad band.  I’m not a hardcore kid, but that’s a rad band.

Oh, dude. I’ve known Josh since I was like 11 years old or something like that. We go back a very, very long time. Josh is the reason why I got a job at the (Asbury) Lanes. 

Really? 

Yeah. I would like cover for Josh when he had to go work at the Pony. I initially started filling in for Josh at Snack World at the Lanes. Josh is multi-talented and he’s always been that way. He’s like a great drummer, great guitar player, great songwriter, great graphic designer, great human being. But, uh, yeah, Joe did the art. It’s all done. I’m in shipping hell, you know, rates, figuring out rates and trying to figure out the projected rates are for three months from now. I’m excited. I just saw Joe texting me that “we already won!” Like Paul Kolderie mixed the record. He’s got more fucking Grammys nominations than I have teeth in my mouth.

I didn’t know that!

Oh yeah. Paul Kolderie is the only person that checked every box in my book. He produced and mixed all the Uncle Tupelo records. He also did like Devil’s Night Out and Let’s Face It and all those golden Bosstones records. He also fucking produced the Radiohead’s Creep. 

Really? 

Yeah, all the Pixies stuff. Hole’s Celebrity Skin? He fucking produced and mixed that shit. Massive catalog. And he did like the Toots and the Maytals record. He did like the third Bedouin Soundclash record, the “Walls Fall Down” one. Like okay, he can do ska, he can do punk, he can do shoegaze, he can do Americana, he can do weird. And I don’t really know about Grammys, but he’s definitely got more gold records than I have teeth in my mouth, you know? Which has been real epic because I’ve never worked with somebody like that. The closest I’ve worked with anybody like that is Jon Graber, who, you know, produced a NOFX record. He did a couple Fat Wreck records. He’s done a lot, but nothing of that caliber, you know? He didn’t do Kid A. And no disrespect to Jon. Jon taught me how to write songs. I thought I knew. And then I hung out with Jon for a little bit and my world got overturned, right? In the Sammy catalog, right? “Better/Worse” and “Methamphetamines” are Jon Graber’s production. That’s when the world opened up. Like, “oh, it doesn’t have to be electric guitars and drums and bass. Let’s put a marching snare and a fucking horn section on strings.” But me, Jay, Paul Kolderie, Joe, Dermo…we won. We made a cool record that we’re real proud of. So nothing else really fucking matters. I guess if we break even, then we’re happy. You know, we have to make back the investment on the press. That’s fucking fun. I was going to say, like, yeah, I hope people like it. I mean, sure, I do care, but I don’t care. We got to win. Gittleman sent me a cool guy sunglasses emoji three times and said, “yeah, this record’s pretty good. And then he said, “you know, we won, bud. We did the thing. And I was like, all right, cool. Cool guy emojis, sunglasses back, bud. 

It’s good that you feel that way before people have even heard it, right? Before people can even pre-order it. Because it’s authentic internally.

Yeah, we already put this out. It exists. We won. 

Whatever it does, it does. But the fact that you feel like it’s a win already is awesome. 

Dude, the win already is the fact that I’m the youngest and I’m 35, right? Craig’s 37. Jay’s 40. Dermo and Gittleman are pushing 60, right? (*both laugh*) Dude, the win is that somebody like myself or Jay or Craig, we’ve never been in a bus. Like, Jay’s claim to fame is he opened for fucking Weezer at a casino in northern Kentucky 25 years ago, right? Like, lovingly, you know? And Craig and me did the Fast Four, you know, like, with Tim and Ben and Chris from Catbite. Like, the Fast Four was the three of them and Craig, pretty much. Like, we were happy and content, but the win is that, like, Dermo and fucking Joe were in a fucking van, loading in, with the utmost respect and they’re stoked. Like, dude, starting a band is hard. Writing a record is hard, even for the best. Doing the fucking thing and committing, cannonballing a new product is not an easy thing. And essentially, like, with love and admiration to Joe, and even myself, like, starting over, you know? I’ve never been—I haven’t been in a band that wasn’t “Sammy and the…” in the better part of 20 years, 15 years. For the five of us to cannonball and just try and start a new project, and just to be able to put out a seven-inch, let alone a seven-inch AND a fucking 12-inch EP and a full-length in a calendar year, and play 20 shows, that’s a fucking win. 

I feel like, particularly because the way that you’re doing it is not— 

And we don’t even live in the same state!

Well, that’s what I mean, right. Right, that like, you weren’t in the same room writing together. You weren’t in the same room jamming ideas back and forth to each other. And that seems like a thing that none of you had done independently before, so now you’re all trying to figure it out on the fly. 

Dude, and on top of it, like, my childhood memory is listening to Let’s Face It with my dad, right? And the first time I saw The Bouncing Souls happened to be McDermott’s first show. 

Oh, wow.

In a fucking skate park. And McDermott shows up, and the first show he plays with us is in a fucking skate park. Like, all of these little things are just fucking magical. And it’s just a fucking win. You and I have talked enough, on record and off record, that you know I don’t give a fuck. I don’t need to be doing this. Like, most days I don’t want to be doing this. Sorry, I always want to be doing this, but most days it’s a struggle just being 35, Liz being sick, having an 11-year-old in the house, navigating all that and having a deaf dog. Making ends meet, like, trying to cover fucking cancer meds. Like, that shit’s hard enough. I’m just stoked that, like, we have this little crew, down to the spouses. All of the spouses are friends, you know? Like Jay…it’s not ever just Jay, it’s Jay and Mel Fox. Always. Like, the kid doesn’t want to see Jay, they want to see Mel. When we go to a show or go get tacos every once in a while – just to have this kind of circle or this new little family, and to have this beautiful bond so quick…there’s something cathartic about doing this. Like, I love music again. I love it. I love electric guitars. I love delay pedals. I love screaming into a crowd. And now they’re starting to scream back and that’s really cool. I’m 35, I’ve been playing punk rock music in New Jersey since 2003. I had never played the Stone Pony, and I had never played with the Bouncing Souls. Just getting that call was huge, you know? Getting to do Big D on home turf in Boston? We have another Boston show coming up in March. We’re playing at the venue attached to fucking Fenway Park with the fucking Dropkick Murphys, and our first Boston show was at the venue attached to the Garden with Big D. Like, who the fuck can say that?

Out of the gate, too!

Out of the gate! Again, I’m 35. I’m no spring chicken.

And you’re the baby!

Yeah, I’m the baby. But if we’re talking baseball, I’m like coming back off of ACL surgery. (*both laugh*) I’m like Joey Votto right now – well, I’m not the greatest – but, in my head, I’m on the farewell tour. Like, I’ve played four shows as Sammy Kay in the last 18 months. Maybe five shows. And two of those, I got asked to play the day of because somebody had to drop off. I’m not fielding shows, I’m not actively chasing that. I put out a record, and bless Sell The Heart, I was like “I don’t wanna play shows” and they were like “that’s fine, the record is good enough, let’s break even and call it a day.” I’ll play shows on it eventually, but right now I don’t want to. I’m loving playing guitar, and creating music, and it doesn’t feel like work or a chore. And it did. Even with 1960, I went to Jay’s twice a week, religiously, and the second we finished that, it turned into Kilograms world and I was going there religiously and working and working and working. And now that things are done, it’s like “holy shit…this rules.” I’m in a band with Gittleman and McDermott and one of my oldest bandmates – me and him swore we were never going to get in a van together again; not in a bad way, just like “we’re not doing this anymore” – and Jay, who’s been not my longest collaborator, but me and Jay have probably done as much music together as me and Pete have. Me and Pete have been going for like twelve years now? This will be the fifth full-length record I’ve done with Pete, plus a bunch of other stuff and demos and a few splits that never came out. But me and Jay have probably cranked out as much music as me and Pete have, but in only like two-and-a-half years. And like, writing with Joe, is fucking wild. There’s this kind of wonderful respect for what each other does, and I think we’ve finally figured it out. Like, “Lorelei” is all Joe. I might have helped change a couple lines, and that was just guidance. And vice versa, like “Old Dog.” Or he guided “Beliefs And Thieves.” I had a lot of that in a notebook in different phases and I smushed it all together. But I didn’t write a lick of music on that song. He sent me a song that was called like “No Good Managers” and I was like “I don’t know about those words, can I try?” And I had the line “anarchy at the Flying J” in my notebook for years, and I knew I wanted to make fun of Morrissey and I knew I wanted to make a statement about the upcoming administration. And I had “I try and I try my best but I still just stand conceited/nobody wins when we all just stand defeated” line.

Yeah, that sounds like a Sammy line.

That’s been in my notebook since the day Trump got elected. I’ve been trying to write that song for a long time. There’s like ten versions of that song that all had “viva Los Reno” as the hook, and then I wrote down “beliefs and thieves,” and once I had that, it all poured out. But Joe was setting me up. Like “Faith And Love” he had this chorus, and he was like “go do the thing.” And my thing was to tell the story. It’s beautiful, because I think he’s understanding how I write a little more and setting me up even better. Like in “Faith And Love” – “a little faith, a little love, I’m just another kid from a long long line of breakdowns” … that’s such a Sammy line!

Oh absolutely.

I didn’t write that! (*both laugh*) He just handed me that and said “do the thing.” Like “innocense and shambles, you’re hanging by a thread / thoughts of ‘Hallelujah’ is the chorus in my head.” That’s some Sammy shit right there! I didn’t write that! “Fireworks” is another example. “Fireworks” was this whole song except for the pre-chorus. Like, “every whisper said just a little too loud each and every night.” And it was like the chorus. And I was like, “no, that’s not the chorus, that’s gotta be the pre-chorus.” You can set it up to be something and he’s like, go with it, you know? Just the grace of being able to co-write and everything’s on the table. Like, “yeah, fuck with what I gotta say,” you know? And vice versa. It’s real magical. A lot of the record, man, like “Hardlines.” “Hardlines” is a song called “Born to Run.” By me. “Hardlines” was this whole, like, the big ending, the “one more road to roam,” that was the whole song pretty much repeated. And there was some, like, doubles. And then we recorded it, we got the groove, we did it. I did the overdubs and the vocals weren’t laying. I was like, “yo, can I just try something?” And that just happened. “Born to Run” became, like, the verses, the “is it okay, is it alright.” And then, like, there was another song on an earlier day for the record that got split up over like six songs. Like, the third verse of “Hardlines” is the second verse of that song. The “rosary feelings” line. And the outro of “Old Dog” is the third verse of the old song. And it just got spread out. There’s a riff that came from it that got moved to something else. It’s really beautiful because everything’s fluid with what I’m saying. It’s like, “oh, that didn’t work, but that riff ruled, so let’s remember that, you know?”

Is that stuff you were doing when you were sending ideas back and forth, or is that, like, when you’re finally in a room together in the studio or whatever? 

Sending back and forth, for the most part. Like, “Faith and Love” was done. We had the arrangement and we had GarageBand drums on it, you know? Like, we had the tempo set and we knew the gist of the song. “Battles” was like that. “Battles,” when we hit the studio, was like that. I think there’s three different, like, Jay iterations of it, you know? But for the most part, like, “Beliefs And Thieves,” like, the riff is there. Everything was almost note for note, the music.  I don’t know if it was the sabbatical or free time or whatever, but Joe just was ripping all summer. And, like I said earlier, there’s probably another six Joe songs that have, with maybe an hour’s worth of work each, could be a full another record. 

Have you talked to him about, like, what was his frame of reference with or his, I guess, level of knowledge of your music prior to this whole thing starting? I mean, did he have ideas like, “hey, that song or that particular album, let’s do something like that.” That seems like a huge leap of faith for somebody like Joe.

I think it was just a massive leap of faith for both of us. I’ve never really written with anybody. I knew he loved me. Like, we had played together a couple times. But I don’t know if he owned the records. I think it was just like, “oh, it’s Sammy. He’s writing a lot, I’m writing a lot.” You know, we had gotten a bunch of shows with friends of his. So I don’t know if Lenny (Lashley) had been like, “oh, Joe, do you know Sammy?” Or Big D. Like I’ve opened up for them for fucking almost 20 years now, you know? But, yeah, I’m not really sure how much of what I was doing came in. I don’t think it really mattered. 

It feels like it was just destined to work. And I don’t know if that’s like New Agey or whatever, but it feels like it was just destined to work.

Yeah. Liz and Angie were saying that, like…there’s a picture of me and Joe that Liz or somebody took in the backstage of The Pony of us, like, after the set, sitting with our legs crossed, looking like we’ve been friends for 30 years, you know, like 20 years, like old friends.

Yeah!

That’s like the really beautiful, magical thing about this band is that, like, we all, like, locked in. Even Wes, who you met in Boston…Wes is now tour managing. 

That’s great. 

Because I got a lot on my plate and just trying to relieve a little stress for me. He got in the van just to fill in for fucking three shows and McDermott was like, “that’s a tour manager. He’s coming everywhere with us.”

That’s awesome.

Like, when you fucking find your people. Building a band or being in a band is no different than finding your wife. Like, you’re in. You know when you find your people, you find your claim.

Yeah, right.

I’ve said it a dozen times. There’s something fucking magical about this that, like, no matter what happens, we win. We did something really cool. We all are on the same page, like, doing the fucking thing. We’re doing something. We got a hill that we’re standing on together and, like, unified. If one person doesn’t want to do anything, we don’t fight it. 

Right.

If it doesn’t make sense, let’s not do it. You know, you can challenge it. Like, I’ve said, “trust me” a couple of times. Jay said “trust me” on some mixes. Joe said “trust me”. Like, Dermo said “trust me.” But, like, if someone say “trust me,” you trust him and you see it through. You stand by your fucking crew. You know, you stand by and say, “all right, let’s fucking do this.” You know, even if it’s, like, dumb shit, like, “I want to do a shirt color that’s this color. I don’t know if it’ll sell, but, like, let’s try it.” And it works. It works, you know? You just gotta fucking do the thing. And it’s real great when there’s a crew that’s ready to go down with the shit, doing the same fucking thing, you know? 

I’m glad you did it. It’s not just because I like the music and I like you and the guys, like, separately and collectively. But I’m glad you did it. Like, this project makes me happy for you, for the band, for the scene. Like, I’m glad you guys did this and are doing this. I’m glad you are doing it. 

And selfishly, like, I love McDermot’s drumming in the Souls. I love it. I love it. And it’s nice to see Dermo, like, shredding on the drums, playing ska-punk and punk.  And, dude, like, I’m sure Avoid One Thing will do another record or would have done another. I don’t know. Like, I’m just stoked that, like, there’s Gittleman music in the world. 

Absolutely.

There’s Gittleman and McDermott. Like, that shit’s a masterclass. We don’t rehearse often. We usually rehearse for, like, two hours the night before we go play shows. But just sitting in that rehearsal, watching the two of them walk in and go. Like, first song is like, “all right, cool, we’re playing music.” Second song is like, “all right, there’s some cobwebs.” Third song is, they just become this well-oiled machine. And it’s just a fucking masterclass. Watching two people legitimately listen to each other while they’re playing and being able to work off of each other without fucking looking at each other, without cueing each other, just by hearing, like, “oh, Joe hit the A string, he’s about to hit a fucking shredder.” And Dermo will lay back and then immediately come back with a shred. Like, like a call and response. Or, you know, watching Jay, like…you know it’s starting to go when he starts spinning. 

Yeah, right, right, right. 

And God, I hate using the word frontman, because there’s not really frontman in this band. But as the guy that yells a lot, having the confidence with that rhythm section and with two old, old friends. The stage is split, right? I got two guys that I’ve been in the trenches with for a long time, and two guys that have rightfully earned their place in American history. Being able to just do what I like to think I’m okay at doing, and never have to worry is just fucking epic. At the end of the day, I think I’m the worst musician in that band. I’m the worst player, I’m the worst at music theory, I’m the worst at a lot of things in that band. But for some reason that shit doesn’t matter. You know? 

Right. 

Just because I have such a sturdy foundation to stand next to, you know? I’ll say it again, man. It’s just fucking magical. It’s a really beautiful. And if this shit lasts for a year, that’s cool. We got a year, you know? If we get another record out of this, fuck yeah. And if we don’t, like, that’s cool too. We did something cool. We did something that we’re fucking proud of. That we feel like we won. And that I, as both a fan of everybody in this band and their respective projects… The kids’ still got something to say. And I’m hoping the kids also want to hear what we got to say. 

I mean, I have no concept of what people like and what they don’t, clearly. But I think people will dig it. I mean, Joe fans in and of themselves will dig it. And then, like, obviously, you and the rest of the guys expose that to a wider audience. But, like, Joe’s obviously got Joe fans. They’re gonna love it. I’m happy for you guys, man. I’m proud of you guys.

Nora Googled Joe, and was like, you understand you’re in a band with a guy that created a genre? Yeah?” And I was like, “I’m real grateful for that every day.” You know, that’s a cool fucking thing, man. Like, to be able to create with him and then create, like, the palm of my hand is the Bouncing Souls logo. (*both laugh*) You know, like, Derm did some solid work with them for a number of years, you know? It’s a pretty beautiful thing. It is a pretty fucking beautiful thing. Which is why I think I’m loving slinging a hammer as much as I am, because I’m creating. I’m really enjoying, like, staring at a deck or, like, I just saw a room that I framed it out and, like, demoed the whole thing; like, I took it down, reframed it, like, and there’s a bathroom sitting there. It’s like, that’s a finished product, you know? It’s a cool thing. Just to have something, you know?

Yeah, to have a tangible thing that, like, you created, whether you did it yourself or you helped other people and you created it together. There’s nothing else like that, I think.

There’s nothing else like that. That’s the ticket.