It’s fair to say that if The Drowns aren’t the hardest-working band in punk rock, they’re at the very least on the shortest of shortlists of hardest-working bands in punk rock. Maybe in music at large. Since getting their start as a unit back in 2017, the Seattle-based trio (Aaron Rev Peters on guitar and vocals, Andy Wylie on bass and vocals, Jake Margolis on drums) have played somewhere around a quadrillion shows in the US and abroad. They released their full-length debut, View From The Bottom, in 2018, and followed that up with a full-length Under Tension in 2020 and the Lunatics EP in 2022 and the Blacked Out full-length in 2024 and reissued View From The Bottom in 2025 and sprinkled in a bunch of 7-inches and splits with bands like Plizzken and The Last Gang and Suzi Moon and Wonk Unit along the way. 

September 18th brings with it the release of Harsh Reality, The Drowns latest and dare we say unequivocally greatest full-length to date. Harsh Reality finds The Drowns at their most laser-focused, a lean, mean, three-piece facism-fighting machine. “But Dying Scene,” you might ask,”aren’t The Drowns a four-piece band?” For most of their history, astute reader, you’d be correct, especially in the live format. The Drowns have had a few different people hold down the stage right/lead guitar slot over the last nine years. Harsh Reality marks the first time since the first record that they’ve recorded as a three-piece. It also marks the first time they’ve recorded with the intent of keeping it that way.

“When Christian (Martucci), our last guitar player, had to step away from touring due to family issues, it was a big blow to us,” explains Peters. The band were just about to embark on yet-another European tour and then head back to the States and into the studio when word of Christian stepping down came, forcing the core trio to make a decision. “We are now, for the first time as this band, motivated to only be a three-piece moving forward. We had to make so it wouldn’t seem like something was horribly missing live. It feels like we’re the most locked in and we’re the most powerful at this moment.”

Dream though it might have been, that doesn’t mean the process wasn’t work. Lots of work. “We spent two weeks in the studio, which didn’t feel like enough time at first until we realized that we did like 16 hour days,” laughs Peters. “It’s not a joke that Andy and I did not see the sun. We didn’t leave the building. We slept in a room at the Blasting Room.” Stevenson and his crew (which obviously includes Livermore and also engineer Colton Krohn and Stevenson’s son, Miles) have developed a reputation for putting out dynamite punk rock records for more than three decades for a reason. “Bill is specific. Nobody records like him,” Peters explains. “The way that he goes after what he wants and what he needs to hear is direct. If you’re fucking up, he’s going to tell you. If something isn’t good enough, he’s going to tell you. And as much as it might be hard for the artist at the time, that’s what a great producer does.“

This was especially true when it came to tracking vocals, and ESPECIALLY true when it came to tracking Peters’ vocals specifically. “Andy is clasically trained and has a beautiful voice like an angel,” laughs Peters. “I sound like I’m gargling gravel all the time.” Rise Against’s Zach Blair, a friend of the Drowns who also appears on Harsh Reality track “Vengeance” and has spent many hours recording with Stevenson at the Blasting Room, offered Peters a warning before the Drowns hit the studio: “Just so you know, vocals with Bill are going to be a nightmare!” It’s a sentiment that was echoed by Bill’s son Miles during the process. “And Miles is even like, “my dad’s going to be hard on you on vocals; I hope you know that!” And I was like “yeah, I know!” Stevenson and Peters dug deep into the trenches together in the studio. “He worked the shit out of me and at points I was obviously very frustrated doing the same thing over and over again.”

And while there might be those one or two or three select right-wing dickheads in attendance at a given show, the band’s Clash-like voiciferous antifascist, antiracist, anti-billionaire attitudes and inclusivity toward marginalized communities have won them more than a few fans along the way. “We were in Europe and we played a show,” explains Peters. “A couple of days later, we got this message from a guy who used to be a part of a white nationalist motorcycle group. And he had already been having these thoughts like, “maybe I’m fucked up. Maybe this is not OK.” He came to the show, listened to me rant, listened to our songs, got into our records and sent us this insanely long and beautiful message about how he’s trying to change his life. Even just that, that’s enough. That motherfucker’s trying, you know what I mean?” Or the fierce love and support that they show to their moms and wives and sisters and the women in their lives who never get the sort of love and support they need (as sung about on tracks like “She’s The Knife” from the Lunatics EP.) “The last show of this last tour with Teenage Bottlerocket, a woman came up to us crying afterwards and was like, just “thank you for speaking up for how women are discounted in this country because I needed to hear that today.”

As fierce and pointed as the bulk of Harsh Reality is, especially on tracks like “Vengeance” and “Always A Bastard” and “Strangled Voices,” it’s also very much a hopeful rallying cry that we can make things better. Songs like “Have A Heart” and “Tender Hooks” point to a better way; togetherness as a light in the proverbial darkness. They’re themes that are at the core of everything The Drowns do; the relentless touring schedule, the endless songwriting, the staunch progressive philosophies are all reinforced by the backbones of their families and friends and loved ones and the punk rock community as a whole. “We believe in what we do,” declares Rev. “And we still do think that art and music and rock and roll have a place for social change. We still believe that we’re doing something that matters. And that is the only way to be. Luckily, all of our family members believe that too. We’re in a fortunate position that people who support us actually do also think we’re doing something good.“

Harsh Reality is still available for pre-order through Pirates Press or through The Drowns’ bandcamp page. Check out our full chat below for more on working with Ted Hutt and Bill Stevenson, what role Mike Felumlee (Smoking Popes) and Mark Lind (The Ducky Boys, Mark Lind & The Unloved) had in the early days of the Drowns, which Harsh Reality track was originally titled “Fuck Eric Clapton” and more!

***Editor’s Note: The following conversation has been edited and condensed for content and clarity. Yes, really.***

Dying Scene (Jay Stone): You guys are the hardest-working band in punk rock. I think that is fair to say. 

The Drowns (Aaron-Rev Peters): God knows we try, man.

Is that a conscious thing? It seems like you wear it as a badge of honor, but was that (the plan) going into it, or did it become that over time? 

Yeah, you know, it’s funny because in the beginning, we never called ourselves that. Let me say that. We’ve never made that name. 

No, that’s for assholes like me to do. 

No, no. (*both laugh*) But I appreciate it. I do. It wasn’t a conscious goal to become that, but we did have a conversation in the very beginning, and we set boundaries when we first started The Drowns, because we had all been in other bands that had so many problems and imploded, and they all stopped at the same time. We were like, “if we’re going to give it our all, we have to have some rules and make sure we’re all on the same page. And one of those rules was we say yes to everything. And you build your life around the band’s opportunities, not the other way around.” And so that kind of unfortunately snowballed into what we have now, where it’s just every opportunity we get that comes in, we’re like, fuck, fuck, fuck! (*both laugh*). We’ve got to figure it out.

Right. That is easier said than done, especially when you have spouses or kids or whatever. That’s not nothing. And I don’t know that people realize that. 

I don’t want to call out any other bands specifically, but I will say, speaking for us, we believe in what we do. And we still do think that art and music and rock and roll have a place for social change. And so we do actually believe in what we do, and I feel like a lot of people would either doubt that or scoff at that. But it is the truth. We still believe that we’re doing something that matters. And that is the only way to be. Luckily, all of our family members believe that too. It’s one of those things where we’re in a fortunate position that people who support us actually do also think we’re doing something good. I feel like if I was just in a band that was going to go on tour and talk about how cool I am, it wouldn’t work out as well. (*both laugh*)

Right! I think that’s obviously always been the focus of The Drowns, but it seems that over the course of last eight or nine years or however long it’s been at this point, that’s become a lot more laser focused. Obviously, social change issues haven’t gotten better, and so the shitstorm just keeps coming, so it seems like the longer this goes, the more focused that you are on that. 

Absolutely. I mean, part of it too is that we’re all huge Clash fans. And then on top of that, unfortunately, the world won’t stop. We wrote Under Tension in 2019, we recorded it and released it in 2020. And we wrote that record about the first Trump administration and how terrible the world was at that time. And we’re almost a decade later at this point, and it’s fucking worse! We wrote the Lunatics EP in between there, that EP. Andy has a song about the homeless crisis in Seattle, the song “Lunatics.” And that song, unfortunately, the numbers we put on the music video for the statistics of how Seattle was, are worse. I would love to just write songs about how much I love my mom and I would love to write songs about how much fun I’m having in life. (*both laugh*) I would 100% rather do that. But unfortunately, the world is not allowing us to do that at this moment!

I was gonna say, do you ever think, “oh, man, I wish I just liked singing about skateboarding and playing soccer.” Shout out to the Bouncing Souls. I love the Bouncing Souls, they’re one of the most important bands ever, but they also have songs about pizza and soccer.

We just we just got off the tour with those guys, and then we met up with Teenage Bottlerocket. And I was like, that’s gotta be great, singing songs about being rad, you know? (*both laugh*)

Seriously, an album just devoted to like cool shit. Like, yeah!

And I’m on the stage doing what we do and talking about the things we do and then getting like massive hate mail from right-wing dickheads afterwards being like, “don’t ever come back to my town.” 

Is that a regular thing? 

Oh, every day. Absolutely. Yeah. 

Even at the shows that you play? Not just from the soulless hellscape that is the Internet, but even from like shows that you play with similarly minded bands? Even still like that’s the feedback you get from people at those shows?

Yeah. Let me say it’s at least it’s 90/10 as far as like people who are actually stoked to people who are mad about it. But yeah, we get that every show. There’s at least one, two, three. You know, we got a message after Calgary that was like, “you know, fuck you! Stay in the States! You’re a piece of shit! No one will ever agree with you!” That was one of the comment. Also, the guy like scrolled back to a post we made three years ago to really hide it. He commented like “nobody clapped in Calgary!” It’s like, “dude, there’s a video on YouTube!” We got another one the other day…I won’t say the name of the band, but we played a show and got a message from a guy in a band that didn’t play the show, but was in attendance, and he was just like “fuck your socialist politics and fuck your views on capitalism. America is the greatest country ever!” And I was like, “man, you’re drinking the fucking Kool-Aid, dog. Like, what are you doing at a punk show? Or in a quote-unquote punk band?” Right wing punks is such an absolutely obscene idea to me. I don’t understand it.

No, it doesn’t make sense. It has never made sense. And obviously I would never say the name of the band while the record button was pressed either, but I certainly know people myself that are in “progressive” bands or “socially conscious” bands that are very much Not! Let’s put it that way. That are very much like RFK Jr-aligned at the very least,  as fucking wing nutty as that is. It just doesn’t make sense at any level to me. 

It just seems like sooner or later, you get caught in your bubble and it almost seems like psychosis to an extent. Like you’re explaining bad feelings to yourself in a way that changes the world around you or how you perceive the world around you. To excuse these horribly not good feelings you have about other people or maybe other things going on in the world. And that, to me, is a level of psychosis. It seems like there’s a lot more going on in your life that makes you feel and think that way than you’re addressing. 

Right. And it becomes this vicious feedback circle in your own little world or even in your own little brain. You keep reinforcing your own shit because you keep inventing your own issues.

Yeah. That band I just mentioned, the rest of the band messaged me and said like “hey, man, we got to say we don’t agree.” 

That’s crazy. 

And I just sent them a message being like, “then you should either beat them up or leave the band. Those are your choices. “I was like, fuck that dude. He said some God awful things.

It’s the old parable, right? If there’s one Nazi at a dinner party with nine other people and the other nine people don’t say anything, then there’s 10 Nazis at a dinner party. 

Yeah, that’s the thing. I talked about the rules, and we’ve had a rule since day one that if you if we encounter that, then the first guy to see it punches them and the rest bail them out of jail. That’s the rule. And we’re not we’re not tough guys! We’re not violent. Let me throw that out there. We’d probably get beat up in most of these situations (*both laugh*) but we’re going to stand behind our morals and our views on all of this because it’s people not taking a stand and allowing things like this to happen that has gotten us in this position. My dad used to say “sometimes people need to get punched in the face so they can remember that it hurts.” And in this situation, not enough people have been like, “oh, hey, you’re a piece of shit for having that view.” They’ve just let it slide, and it’s now coalesced into this massive social movement of douchebags. Because of the Internet, they can talk about their douchebag stuff and make it seem normal to them. And it’s not it’s not OK. Unfortunately, we all have to kind of call them out on it.

So do you feel encouraged? How many shows do you play a year? Like what’s an average year for The Drowns? Because it seems like it’s 500, but that’s clearly not the case. 

Average has become between 150 and 200. 

Do you feel encouraged being in front of 200 audiences a year, that there are still plenty of people on the right side and a growing number of people on the right side? Right meaning correct, not right wing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One hundred percent. Yes, I do. I do think there’s changes. And, you know, we’ve gotten messages from people who have thought the other way and now leaned towards being a more compassionate person. We were in Europe…I don’t remember the exact country, but we were in Europe and we played a show. And a couple of days later, we got this message from a guy who used to be a part of a white nationalist motorcycle group. And he had already been having these thoughts like, “maybe I’m fucked up. Maybe this is not OK.” He came to the show, listened to me rant, listened to our songs, got into our records and sent us this insanely long and beautiful message about how he’s trying to change his life. Even just that, that’s enough. That motherfucker’s trying, you know what I mean? That’s all I need to keep going, let alone when we play in front of these huge crowds who, you know, parents of queer and trans kids are bringing them there and thanking us for saying the things we do. The last show of this last tour with Teenage Bottlerocket, a woman came up to us crying afterwards and was like, just “thank you for speaking up for how women are discounted in this country because I needed to hear that today.” Those are her exact words. She’s like, “I need to hear that today.” And she was tearing up and gave me and Jake hugs. Those are just a couple of stories; we get tons of that all the time. And we’re not special, we’re just talking about it. 

Yeah, the latter point you made the about women specifically is a very Drowns-specific thing. There are obviously bands who are into social causes and whatever and protecting trans youth, obviously, but very few that I have heard sort of put front and center the way that you do that women deserve equal respect and probably more respect than we do. That is obviously common in bands that …I hate to say are female-fronted, because that’s stupid, it’s not a genre…but it’s very rare for a band full of dudes to be front and center with that. And it’s so appreciated. 

Well, thank you for saying that. We also we do say on stage that (women) have to put up with things that we could never understand, we can at least hold space for them. That’s what we’re attempting to do by writing songs about that and saying things like that on stage. The only thing we can do is hold space for them, because we’ll never fully be able to understand it. I will say from my perceived view, all of the women in my life have had horrible issues like that they’ve had to deal with that I would never understand, whether it’s, you know, workplace or social or whatever. The big one was years ago, I read this article, that, when surveyed 100 women when asked what they would do if there were no more men, the majority said they would go for a walk at night. That broke my heart. It fucking killed me. That wasn’t the beginning; I had already seen all these things. But that was the thing that pushed me over the cliff personally, to where I was like, “I need to really change my view on how I back the women in my life who I love and care about.” And my mother is amazing. Everybody who knows me personally and  knows the band knows that my mom is insanely important to my life. Everybody who was at Rock the Ship when we played on that ship with Cock Sparrer, I pointed out my mom in the crowd. She’s always been there for me. And my wife is phenomenal. And these are just the people I’m directly in contact with. If you take that barrier away, there’s so many people in every crowd every night that have affected others who I don’t know. And I also want to be making them feel safe at that time and hopefully making them feel like we are backing them and their everyday struggles that we wouldn’t be able to necessarily understand.

As the father of a soon-to-be college freshman daughter, part of my goal and bringing her to punk shows over the years, and particularly the bands that I exposed her to was to know that like, obviously, this punk scene is mostly dudes, right? And it’s mostly hetero straight dudes, but at least that there can be space for other people, there can be space for people who are going to look out for you, who if you’re being picked on, if you fall down, like there’s a bunch of other people that are gonna pick you up, and then hopefully kick the shit out of the person who pushed you down.  Even if she doesn’t like the music, because most of the time she doesn’t, that’s the one thing that I hope that she takes with her to school and into the future. She’ll be a freshman at UMass Lowell.

Oh, nice! Lowell too. Nice. That’s awesome. Im a huge Kerouac fan, so that’s amazing, Lowell’s an amazing town that has its own vibe. And I think it really curates this, almost like creative and fun mentality. It’s got its problems too, like any other town,

Of course.

But I love it out there. My wife is from Taunton. And so when I brought up Lowell a while ago, she’s like, yeah, Lowell could be sketchy, but it’s fun!

Yeah…but she’s from Taunton…

It’s so true. I was like, “I’ve been to Taunton…Lowell’s fine!” (*both laugh*)

So let’s talk about the new record, Harsh Reality. What a great, great record. And I’d say that as somebody who’s been a fan for a long time, but you quite literally did level up in like every possible, like every possible column. 

Oh, thank you, man. That’s huge. Thank you. 

Let’s start with working at The Blasting Room, which is obviously a big change for you guys. Obviously Ted Hutt’s resume speaks for itself, but how was working with Bill (Stevenson) and Jason (Livermore) at The Blasting Room? And is it as awesome as I picture in my head? 

It was. I mean, it’s an absolute dream. It’s one of those things where when the opportunity presented itself, all parties kind of wanted it to happen, which that alone is pretty amazing. Jason had mastered stuff for us in the past. And Jason actually used to live in Tacoma, so we have a lot of mutual friends. But working with Bill, I mean, that’s everything I’ve ever wanted. Day one, I was trying to cover up my Descendents and Black Flag tattoos while we talked because I didn’t want the bar to be set weird. But we had enough friends record with him too, to know that it was going to be hard. Like Bill is specific. Nobody records like him. It’s very specific to him. The way that he goes after what he wants and what he needs to hear is direct. If you’re fucking something up, he’s going to tell you. If something isn’t good enough, he’s going to tell you that. And as much as it might be hard for the artist at the time, that’s what a great producer does. Ted did that too. And I’m so indebted to Ted. Making the recordings we did with Ted really prepared me to work with other producers, because not that Ted was harder than anybody else, but he was also very specific and very direct. I don’t want to use the word monotonous, but he would put us in this ‘you keep going until it’s right’ kind of mentality. There was a lot of that with Bill too. It was a dream, man. The whole crew there is amazing at the Blasting Room. We spent two weeks in the studio, which didn’t feel like enough time at first until we realized that we did like 16 hour days. It’s not a joke that Andy and I did not see the sun. We didn’t leave the building. We slept in a room at the Blasting Room. I woke up early every morning before everybody else to start guitars with a guy named Colton (Krohn), who’s amazing. I would wake up at like, I don’t know, 8:30, 9:00 every morning and then go get a cup of coffee and go directly into guitars until noon or 12:30, when Bill would get there. And then we would do everything else all day until like four in the morning and then like start over again. A few times I only slept for a few hours, but we ended up smashing it out. And like, I think that added to how it went, really, because you’re pushing it. You’re living it. You’re living that experience. It was amazing, man. The whole crew there are like the nicest guys ever. And Jason had a huge hand in tones and setting up microphone choices and preamp choices. And he was way more involved than I thought he was going to be. Yeah, it was unreal, man.

How much did the music that you went in with change during that process? Were you writing in the studio or did you have everything essentially written? And then how true to what you went in with did you it come out? 

We had demoed stuff and arguably the songs technically could have been done, but we didn’t view them as that. It was more ‘get the groundwork and get the skeleton there.’ And we wanted Bill’s input. It’s funny because with Ted, we would do pre-production and we would scrap things and change things all at once, and then we would go record what we had put together. And with Bill, it was different to where like we had the demos, and then as we built the song, he made the changes as we were physically recording it. So like drums started and he’d be listening to the demo guitars and be like, “ignore this. We need to put this here.” And in the moment we would make those changes. Bill did have a large hand in a lot of it, especially with vocals too. He was very specific on vocal melodies and harmonies and building that melodic structure of the vocals, which you could really tell when you listen to like the Descendents. It’s almost like Milo’s vocals are like a guitar line with all of those pretty melodies. And unfortunately for me, that was the harder part because, you know, I sound like I’m gargling gravel all the time. (*both laugh*) And I was like, I was like, “Bill, I do one thing well. That’s all I got.” (*both laugh*) Andy, on the other hand is, you know, classically trained and has a beautiful voice like an angel. But I was basically just like, “do you want this to sound trashy? If you do, put me on there, if you don’t, have somebody else do harmony!”

It does sound like you both…I mean, certainly Andy, but it does sound like your vocals both have leveled up this time. The record sounds great in general, but vocally, I think you sound good and not in an overproduced way. Like it sounds really good. 

Thanks. Not to repeat myself, but he did emphasize that a lot. His son Miles was there. Miles works at the studio. He’s amazing. And Miles is even like, “my dad’s going to be hard on you on vocals; I hope you know that!” And I was like “yeah, I know!” (*both laugh*). And a lot of friends like Zach from Rise Against, who’s a dear friend of mine, was like, “Just so you know, vocals with Bill are going to be a nightmare!” (*both laugh*) But the result, unfortunately, it works! (*laughs*) That’s the worst part is that no matter what you go through…I agree with you that this record, I think, sounds amazing. I think we captured something special. And unfortunately it’s because of all that hard work. 

Right. It is interesting to be that focused on vocals when you, when you do produce primarily punk rock, like a genre, not necessarily known for its vocalists, but, but I do, but I appreciate it. And it shows that there’s a way to make gargling gravel sound good, and like professional and not just like raw, like you recorded it as three knuckleheads in the studio at the same time, but like you can make that sound good.

There is a reason why “State Of Grace” by Hot Water Music is a fucking amazing record. Bill did that record. And, you know, I would argue that Chuck and I have maybe similar qualities to our voices. And there’s a reason all of Chuck’s melodies are incredible. I mean, for one, he’s very talented, but also like that’s Bill, you know? You’re the paintbrush and then he takes control of it and goes like, “here’s what you do” and he works you until you get it. He made a comment in the studio, like, “you and I are going to get through it. Chuck’s got a raspy voice and we were in the trenches, you and I will be in the trenches.” He kept saying that we’re getting the trenches together. And it was true. He worked the shit out of me and at points I was obviously very frustrated doing the same thing over and over again, but the moment we heard it back, I was like, “fuck it worked!” (*both laugh*)

Is that stuff that you can take with you now going forward? Like, did he teach you kind of how to sing in the studio better in a way that you’ll be able to bring forward, even if you’re just demoing stuff? 

I think so. Yeah. Every single producer you work with, you should take something with you. Bill commented on my rhythm guitar playing and how locked in was and how locked in to the drums the rhythm parts were, and that’s something that I learned from Ted. Ted was extremely hard on me on, but because of that, I was able to knock out rhythm guitar tracks. I hope that I can take some of the stuff that Bill kind of lasered into me on this record. But I’ll be totally honest too, it didn’t scare me and I want to go back and I would, I would 100% do another record at the Blasting Room.

Is this the first time that you’ve written and recorded an album as just the core three piece? Cause there’s always been other guitars, right? 

Yeah. I’ve done the majority of the guitars on all of the records and Andy and I are always the songwriters. The first album, View From The Bottom, which was later re-released by Pirates Press, but we originally that out with some friends. That was the only one besides this one we wrote as a three piece. We had other guys involved in the other albums, but I’ll be totally honest that it’s always coming down to us making the calls, even when we had other guitar players, you know what I mean? Like there’s input here and there, and there are things that are helpful that those guys have helped on, but we always do kind of make the final call as the three-piece. That’s always been the way.

Stylistically though, is this the first time that you’ve written knowing that it’s going to be a three-piece; that there’s not going to be other guitars. You are like a fine-tuned machine. I really thought this the last time you guys were here at Sonia in Cambridge, I remember thinking that as many times as I’ve seen you, it’s probably the tightest that the band has been and probably the best sounding that the band has been. So does that factor into the writing too? Like knowing that it’s going to be stripped down three of us, that makes it a little more like rock and roll that way?

Yeah. I see what you’re saying. Yeah, it was a conscious thing. There were times where certain parts, I was like, “well, live, this would sound like shit. Me playing this like frilly guitar part over the top that has no underlayer” you know? When unfortunately Christian, our last guitar player had to step away from touring due to family issues, it was a big blow to us. We love the guy and we’ve loved so many people we’ve played with. Simon, our last guitar player before Christian, we love those guys so much. And it just unfortunately hasn’t worked out for different reasons, part of which is our rigorous tours. But we are now for the first time as this band motivated to only be a three-piece moving forward. And part of it was when Christian had to bail, we worked so hard on making sure that we showed up on tour. Because we had tours planned that we were locked in to We had to make it so that it wouldn’t seem like something was horribly missing live. And that was just before we went into writing this record. So now that you asked that, I’m putting that together. We’re motivated to only be a three-piece here moving forward because we also felt what you just said, that it feels like we’re the most locked in and we’re the most powerful at the moment. With how rigorous our tour schedule is, we know how important it is for us to keep doing what we do. And we need to make sure that (the new record) doesn’t sound fucked up when you see us (*laughs*). I’m glad that came across.

Oh it totally did. It sounds like a great, rock and roll record, like it’s supposed to…but it’s not “too much.” There’s not too much production, it sounds like it’ll be real awesome live too.

That was a big thing with Bill too, the meat and potatoes. If we don’t need it, we’ll cut it. 

Did everything you recorded end up on the record?

For this recording, yeah. Our label actually asked us that too, because they liked what they heard. But no, we put everything on this album. I mean, we do record all the time, so it’s not too much of a problem. Andy and I write all the time, but for this recording, everything is all laid out on there. 

If you write all the time, how do you narrow down when it’s time to put a record together? How do you narrow down what the focus of a new record is going to be stylistically, and thematically…what goes in to whittling that down?

I write every day. Andy is similar. Like, when we made the last record, Blacked Out, with Ted Hutt, we wrote 100 songs for that record over 4 months. And I know it was 100 because when we hit 100 I was like “Ted, it’s time to fucking choose! You gotta choose which songs because I’m not writing any more!!” (*both laugh*)

And to clarify, when you say 100 songs, you mean 100 songs…not like 100 things that “okay this might be a part, here’s a verse and half a chorus, this could be a bridge for something.”

Yeah, they may not have all of the elaborate underparts in there, but 100 structures that could be built upon as full songs, yeah. 

That’s nuts.

And that was part of the process, to write too much and then build. At times with Ted, we would take parts from other songs that weren’t going to be finished and put them in songs we were working on, so I see what he was doing. But when it comes down to choosing, we just bounce it off each other. We send each other a bunch of files and we talk. Me and Andy and Jake will go through what songs we like best and why and then we consciously think if they’d sound good together as a unit. But with this album we did with Bill, only a couple of the songs are things we had from before. We wanted it to be current and have the same energy and anger that a lot of us are feeling at the moment in the current climate in the United States – or the world, really.  We were conscious about wanting to write songs that mattered for now. Only a few were held over from before.

Is that a tough needle to thread? Although maybe you already answered that because things haven’t necessarily gotten better…but is that a tough needle to thread to write about things that are going on now but to make them still timeless and not immediately sound dated in a year or two or ten or however long the Drowns exist for? To not be too on-the-nose about what’s going on?

It is. I think what’s smart is keeping it applicable to all times, unfortunately. I’m not saying “Fuck Trump” in a song specifically, but I am poetically saying “Fuck Trump” in many songs, you know? (*both laugh*) It could also be applied to anybody. Although I say that, but do you know what the first track on the record is about? The record that no one has heard yet…

So now, because people reading this won’t have heard the song or the album yet, the song is called “Always A Bastard” and so read between the lines…(*both laugh*)

Well so here’s the thing…that song used to be called “Fuck Eric Clapton”!

Oh hell yeah!

So, people might pick up on themes in that, but it’s an underlying song about taking a stance against someone who is very outwardly racist. 

And who keeps doubling down on their racism.

Exactly! In my opinion, that’s the way to do it. The Clash was great at that. Not to keep making it about them, but they were so great at making these songs that kids now can still hear and feel that same energy and that same bit of rebellion and wanting to be a part of something, even though it was written about things going on in the late 70s and early 80s. I think that there is a right way to do it, and I hope that we did it on this record, because it feels like we did. But yeah, it is hard. I mean, the reason that song isn’t called “Fuck Eric Clapton” is that I wanted it to be applicable to other folks too. So it’s tough but it’s important. I think more bands should be doing it. I think more bands should be writing about stuff that we’re all going through and feeling because we’re in a very tumultuous time that’s incredibly volatile, and I hope that maybe future generations can look back and be inspired by the music that we make now.

I think the sad reality…the harsh reality – see what I did there (*both laugh*)…I work for a municipality and I was in a meeting somewhat recently and there was a board of education member speaking about how she had been in her role for six years, and how she wished, just once, that she could have that role in precedented times. She was tired of always working and going through unprecedented times. Because we’ve been living in this harrowing time for a decade plus now. Unfortunately, there’s always going to be a bastard. (*both laugh*) “Relentless” is the first single. It seems like a pretty natural song to get people stoked on the record. It’s a sledgehammer. It’s super fun. Also a great song live. Do you have songs that you’re particularly proud of and that are maybe going to raise some eyebrows with people?

I think a lot of this record, if you’re a fan of the band, is going to resonate. I will say that. I think “Have A Heart,” the second single and one that Andy wrote…I think the lyrics are really going to resonate with people.

I love that song so much. 

I think it’s going to blow some people away. It feels like a definite step up for the band, and I think that we all felt like something was happening with these songs at this time. “Have A Heart” is a sign of that. “Strangled Voices” is another Andy song that’s really great. I’m a massive Tom Petty fan, and musicianship-wise, that was my attempt at being Mike Campbell to his Tom Petty on that song. I can hear that lead melody. I think “Vengeance” is a really great culmination of aggression.

That’s such a 70s, Motorhead, rock and roll song. It’s so dirty. I love it. 

I don’t shred. I’m a very clean guitar player, so we called up Zach from Rise Against and he played the solo on that song. I was like “hey dude…I need more notes.” (*both laugh*) I also think that “3rd and Pike” is a song I love to death. It’s a little bit of levity in the middle of that album. It has a little throwback to maybe late-90s Rancid vibe, maybe a little Swingin Utters. It’s meant to be a little levity in the middle of a record. I think people are going to dig that. And “Let’s Start A Cult,” for selfish reasons, is probably my favorite song on the record. 

And sort of tongue-in-cheek-ishly. But what a super fun song that is. When you’re writing and a song starts to come together, at what point do you say, “you know what, this one’s gonna be more of a fun song”? Again, not that you have songs about like skateboarding and being rad and whatever, but some of the funner songs or the ones like “Third and Pike” that are a little stylistically different…how does that all come together for you? 

So it kind of depends. When the subject matter seems too heavy, like with “Let’s Start a Cult”, I was like well, I’m gonna call out a lot of these folks. There’s gonna be certain religious groups I’m gonna call out. There’s MAGA and these types of very culty, social construct, terrible parties. I was like, if I’m going to do that, it’s going to need to be a little more fun, you know? Because “Them Rats” has served us insanely well over the years. And that song is poignant and specific, and I think that’s what I wanted from that. But with “Let’s Start a Cult” I’m more trying to gather people with a net instead of a hook. Does that make sense? 

Oh, totally.

If it’s a little more not so pointed and harsh on the ears, then sometimes that jovial nature can kind of grab people a little more. And I think that sometimes it happens naturally. Like with “Let’s Start a Cult” it was a little bit of like, “all right, I’m gonna have fun with this one more than just being like ‘Fuck you! I disagree with you!” Sometimes it happens naturally, but I do make conscious choices like with this one. I did definitely want to make it funner.

Not to ask the age old question or what comes first, but what came first on that one? The lyrics or the melody and guitar parts? 

The lyric. I thought of the line to “convince the world we know what happens when we die so we so they don’t feel so alive.” I was watching a documentary, and in that documentary, it was talking about manipulation of large megachurches in the United States. And the line I’m trying to remember, that someone said something to someone about how, like, if you keep them focused on what happens when they die, they don’t mind spending money when they’re here. And that’s what grabbed me. And I was like, “fuck, that’s so fucked up.” 

It’s so evil. Right.

Just terrible. Like if you can keep them focused on the afterlife, then they’ll just do what you want in their own life. And that is such an unfortunately, perfectly poignant way to talk about these large religions, you know? The person, the individual, doesn’t matter in the slightest. They’re a number, they’re a dollar; it’s absolute horseshit. And so I started penning that line immediately, and then it all kind of birthed from there. And I knew I wanted to sing along. I knew I wanted to have the whole crowd yelling something that I think would be a little intense to hear.So I was like, it would be crazy to have a whole crowd cheering and singing “make them slaves to belief!” I think is pretty shocking. (*both laugh*) If you walked into a room full of people hearing that, it’d be very like a Stonecutters from the Simpsons moment, you know? 

(*both laugh*) Yeah, right, right! Yeah, it came out so good. I could say that about about every song on the record, really, because “Vengeance” like we said before, that sort of like just 70s, rock and roll Motorhead song. “Tender Hooks” is a super fun song. “No Better” is great. I don’t necessarily want to know what “No Better’s” origin was, because that’s a song that it seems like people will be able to apply to whatever in their life. It could certainly be political. It could certainly be geared or pointed at the current administration, but it could also be like that’s a song that I think a lot of people can apply to themselves in a lot of situations.

Yeah, I wanted to write a song about impermanence and the effect that you have while you’re here. That’s where that came from. When it comes to stuff that I listen to all the time and on the road and stuff, I’m a huge fan of like bands like Wire and the Minutemen and these bands that use these weird chord progressions that don’t always apply to what The Drowns do. And so that song, parts of that are a departure from our normal formula. And I wanted to introduce that to also this arguably vague song on purpose about impermanence. That’s where that song came from. And when I first showed the guys, I thought they were going to fucking hate it. I was like, “hey, there’s like some elements of like Dag Nasty and stuff in this”. And they loved it! Because it was different. There’s this massive bridge in the middle, you know, that kind of comes out of nowhere and sweeps in and it almost becomes a different song. And maybe I shouldn’t say this, but I put it towards the end of the record on purpose, too, because I was a little self-conscious about that.

Oh, interesting. I was just going to ask if it was written as a closer on purpose, because more so, I think, than any other song, it is a wonderful closer. But it’s interesting to hear you say that maybe about being self-conscious about it.

Yeah. You know, I wasn’t sure. And that’s why that went at the end. And I do agree with you that it is a great closer. For the most part, Andy chose the order to the songs on this one, I believe. I’m pretty sure Andy’s order is what we all kind of decided on, because we also do that as a group; we decide how this how the album should flow as a group. And I think we all kind of saw that as the closer for maybe, what you’re expressing there, that it feels like the right thing. But for me, I was self-conscious. I was like, “fuck, man, there’s a lot of weird chords in this song. And there’s a dissonant break in the middle of these things that I love about certain bands and what they do that is a little out of formula for us.” So I’m glad that you liked it, because in the end, I love that song. And I think what Jake did with the drums in the middle really adds a ton of energy. And Andy’s bass parts, he added so much more melody into a lot of these songs. And that’s one of them, too, that like with the dissonant parts, I was like, I don’t know what these guys are, how they’re going to feel about it. And they embraced it. So in retrospect, I’m not self-conscious about it anymore. But that’s the end of the record. 

Yeah. And maybe it became that because of like we talked about before, knowing that that was going to be a three-person song, right?. Like maybe that’s why Andy’s bass line goes where it does, why Jake’s drums go the way that they do, because you know that it’s just going to be like you three and that it is a little out there. But that’s a way to like reel it in and make it The Drowns.

Yeah. You’re probably right with that, man. I mean, that’s the other thing about being a three-piece now is the three of us know each other so well. Like, you know, people say things like stage telepathy, but we’re so much beyond that, that like I can tell when one of them’s sad by how he’s playing like that. I’m not kidding.

Oh interesting!

A hundred percent. I can tell where they’re at. We’ve talked about this in the van, too. We’re so close at this point because we spend so much time together and we’ve played on stage so many times over the last almost decade now that like if one of them’s missing home, I can tell by how he plays, which is a crazy thing, you know? They can tell when I’m off, you know? Or if I’m happy or if I’m sad by the way that I’m playing at this point. And I think that lends itself to the creative process in the studio now, too, which is kind of cool to see as you confirmed for me there. It’s like you can tell that we’re making that, you know, like the three-piece subconsciously was a part of the thinking there. 

Yeah, right. I think that it works. And again, that’s not to disparage previous incarnations of the Drowns or four-piece lineups, but like there’s something that just seems to inherently work about a three-piece lineup with you three pieces, if that makes sense. Like with this particular three-piece, like it just works.

I appreciate you saying that, man. 

So you leave for Europe soon and then you come back and you’ve got a month off. That’s a big chunk of time for a band that’s that we just talked about is the hardest working band of punk rock.

Yeah. It doesn’t happen that often, but if anyone was ever to say we’re disingenuous, my wife’s getting a hysterectomy, and that’s why I’m home for a month to take care of my wife. And this procedure she has to get done. She’s the most important person in my life, and I have to be here for that. And, you know, Jake has kids. And we make sure even though when people see us online, they’re seeing us nonstop playing shows. Those little breaks are timed for birthdays and for anniversaries that we can make. And do we always make them? No. But we do try to make a conscious effort. And so that’s what I’ll be home doing. I’ll be taking care of my wife while she has a massive surgery. 

Like you said, they put up with shit we have no way to wrap our heads around…

The guys are amazing. My guys are the best and our driver/merch guy, Andrew, like shout out to him. They rushed to get us home a day early from the show in the Midwest. We drove 20 hours straight to Seattle so I could go with her to my wife to preliminary appointments yesterday morning. So we rushed to get home so that way I can sleep for four hours and get up and go to her preliminary appointments, so I would know how to take care of her the right way when she’s recovering.

Good for you. 

And I don’t know what other fucking bands do that.

Yeah, right.

We’re real special, and that’s going to sound egotistical out of context, but it’s true. I love these guys more than anything. And that’s the kind of thing we do, you know? We talk about this shit on stage, but we try to enact it offstage. It’s important that I got home for that and the guys knew it, so we made it happen. Jake’s daughter goes to school out of state, and so him being able to take her and pick her up from this school she goes to out of state is important. If we are home, it’s to do things like that. And we try to fit in as much of the family stuff as possible and keep it all in perspective. But luckily, also, we have very supportive families. 

I appreciate that. I think that punk rock in general will probably not let you get away with being too inauthentic for too long, but The Drowns are the real deal. From day one, you are what you say you are; you live it. Like you said, “once you’re in it, it’s never ending,” right? 

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that’s the truth. (*both laugh…then talk for a little bit about shows in the Boston area, where I’d recently seen Smoking Popes*) You know, maybe people don’t know this about The Drowns lore, but when we first got scouted by Pirates Press, which was on our very first tour, we played a show to nobody in Oakland at a brewery. When we got there, they were like,” there’s no show tonight.” And we’re like, “fuck you. There’s a show tonight!” But it was never promoted or anything. It was us and our friends in a band called Civil War Rust that were from the Bay Area. Great band, if no one’s heard them. But (the venue) didn’t promote us. They were like “There’s no show,” but we talked them into letting us still play. So we played to maybe 10 people. And one of the guys was Gowdy, who works for Pirates. So long story short, when we ended up pitching our first record, Pirates at that time was like, “we don’t know if you’re ready yet.” Fucking jokes on them! Seven years later, they asked me to repress that album. (*both laugh*) But what people don’t know is when they didn’t want to put out that record, one person who did hear it and believed in us was Mike Felumlee. Mike Felumlee obviously is from Smoking Popes, you know, played in Alkaline Trio…Mike was one of the guys who invested in that first Drowns record. 

Oh, that’s awesome. I definitely didn’t know that. 

He saw the beauty in the first album was like, “yeah, I’m going to help do this.” His like Live At The Rock Room helped put that out. And, you know, another way to tie it back in real quick to Massachusetts. People don’t know also that when that first record came out, no one gave a fucking shit about that album at all. No one cared about View From The Bottom. A lot of people viewed us as like three guys from bands that were seeing the end of their career. A LOT of people looked at us like that. We’d all played in these different bands that did a lot, but no one was excited about the new thing. Mark from the Ducky Boys bought an insane amount of View From The Bottom and just sent it to everyone he knew. At that time he was doing his final subscription service, and he started just throwing it in with everything. And we got this massive spike in followers and in listens just from Mark being like, “you’re a fucking idiot if you haven’t heard this band yet”. And so we owe him a ton, too, man.

Shout out to Mark Lind. Mark is one of one. 

And, you know, I’m a huge Ducky Boys fan. And Mark and I are now friends and I love him to death. I love the Ducky Boys. I used to work for Microsoft and they would send me places to do audio video install for them. I was at One Memorial Drive in Cambridge in this massive building for like two years. And I would ride my bike to Allston and I would go see Mark Lind and the Unloved. And that project, if no one has heard, it was amazing. It was like Mark does Bruce Springsteen. It was absolutely great. But yeah, both of those guys helped us out a whole lot. Mark Lind and Mike Felumlee have a huge part in Drowns history that people don’t know about. 

I really had no idea. That’s I should have known that I should have connected those dots. 

There’s a couple of people over the years that have done a lot. Like, the guys in Rancid also told a lot of people were cool before we were. And the guys in Cock Sparrer did the same thing, told a lot of people were cool before we were actually cool. 

Yeah, that certainly helps. Yeah.(*both laugh*)

Like, I don’t want to discredit all the work we do and the records we put out. But a lot of times people were like, you know, “these guys are probably going to be good.” And it happened to work out. 

Yeah, but it’s very easy to fall on your face, right? If that’s the way people have set you up, if people are like, oh, this band is going to be awesome. It’s really easy to trip over your own feet in that situation. 

That is true. That is true.